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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.03.22 17:24. Заголовок: Galliformes and other animals for South America (продолжение)


Hello! I'm back with ideas for some new species for South America. I found in my computer an archive with some ideas for fauna and flora that I had some time ago and decided to show there to ask your opinion about them. The first is about a descendant of the domestic chicken.

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I also have in this archive some names for possible species that I never developed bayond some few facts. Maybe someone could help me make their descriptions.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.03.23 19:45. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Wit..


JOrnitho пишет:

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With the megafauna of South America being larger in the Neocene, would be possible for a larger vampire bat to appear? Like how the Desmodus draculae appeared in the Pleistocene.


I think, yes!

JOrnitho, what do you think, some large aquatic or semi-aquatic mammal will be found in the Neocene in Maracaibo lake instead of the dolphin Sotalia guianensis, for example. And who could become an ancestor? True, the lake with a rise of the level of the ocean will turn into a giant Gulf.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.03.23 15:18. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: JOrni..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
JOrnitho, what do you think, some large aquatic or semi-aquatic mammal will be found in the Neocene in Maracaibo lake instead of the dolphin Sotalia guianensis, for example. And who could become an ancestor?



wovoka, I think that it’s possible. The Caribbean species of algocetus could visit the Maracaibo gulf, perhaps to reproduce here. A resident species of the region could be a seal-like mammal. Sometime ago I proposed the lobo marino, a descendant of the American mink introduced in Southern South America. I'm not sure if other descendants of the mink would have reached the Caribe, I think that they would have remained in the Southern Hemisphere, close to Antartica. In this case, this species living in the Maracaibo gulf would need to be a case of convergent evolution. Perhaps a local species of mustelid or even the small Indian mongoose (Herpestes auropunctatus) introduced in the Caribbean Islands could have evolved in a seal-like animal. In the case of the mongoose, it would have evolved in the coast of the islands and reached the Maracaibo lake later. What do you think?

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.03.23 20:40. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The Caribbean species of algocetus could visit the Maracaibo gulf, perhaps to reproduce here


Good idea!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Perhaps a local species of mustelid or even the small Indian mongoose (Herpestes auropunctatus) introduced in the Caribbean Islands could have evolved in a seal-like animal. In the case of the mongoose, it would have evolved in the coast of the islands and reached the Maracaibo lake later. What do you think?



And what if we take a native, South American, rather than an invasive species, like the Amazon weasel? It is really a land animal, but living on the shores of the Amazon river, it can learn to swim. And then become an analogue, if not of the seal, but of the giant otter.
From the Casiquiare river it can get to the Orinoco river thеn to the ocean and thеn to the Maracaibo gulf. What do you think?

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.03.23 21:12. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: And w..


wovoka пишет:

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And what if we take a native, South American, rather than an invasive species, like the Amazon weasel? It is really a land animal, but living on the shores of the Amazon river, it can learn to swim. And then become an analogue, if not of the seal, but of the giant otter.
From the Casiquiare river it can get to the Orinoco river thеn to the ocean and thеn to the Maracaibo gulf. What do you think?



The Neocene Amazon already have a rodent that fits the niche of the giant otter: the otterodent. This species would need to have a different lifestyle or live in different areas. Another good ancestor is the tayra (Eira barbara), a mustelid that alraedy inhabits the Maracaibo lake. The population living in the region could have developed an aquatic lifestyle, with preference for marine and brackish environment. This way they would become more like a sea otter or seal. From there, these marine mammals could have radiated to Caribbean Islands and perhaps the Mexican gulf.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.03.23 00:03. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: tay..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
tayra


Tayra is a good variant! Will you describe it? And what will be the relationships between the water tayras and algocetuses?

Water tayra - may be we should give it some name? You don't know the name of the Tayra in any of the Chibcha languages?

And what about amazon weasel? Нow can it evolve? Maybe it will be a medium-sized predator of the Amazon, hunting monkeys, birds and other arboreal animals in the forest canopy? Or we can make her a semi-aquatic creature that lives in the lakes and rivers of Ecuador?

What do you think?

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.03.23 03:57. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Tayra..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Tayra is a good variant! Will you describe it? And what will be the relationships between the water tayras and algocetuses?


Yes! I can write it. However, we need to decide if this species would have the lifestyle of a sea otter or of a seal. If possible, I'm inclined to have it being a bit of both, with these mustelids having the body plan of a seal, but feeding on benthic invertebrates and occasional small fishes. Regarding their relationship with the algocetuses, these mustelids could follow them to eat animals that are disturbed by these herbivores. It would be similar to what happens with the ayapuh in Southern South America.
Another animal that could live around the Maracaibo gulf is the barocavia. I think that they would be well suited to the marshlands at the deltas of the rivers that drain there.


 цитата:

And what about amazon weasel? Нow can it evolve? Maybe it will be a medium-sized predator of the Amazon, hunting monkeys, birds and other arboreal animals in the forest canopy? Or we can make her a semi-aquatic creature that lives in the lakes and rivers of Ecuador?


I like the idea of it being semi-aquatic. Perhaps it's adapted to hunt in the flooded areas of the Amazon, such as the igapós. It could even hunt small semi-aquatic rodents.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.03.23 10:25. Заголовок: JOrnitho, I like all..


JOrnitho, I like all the ideas! We just have to come up with names for water tayra and semi-aquatic amazon weasel!

May be we can сall water tayra - aira - in Carib language or eîrara in Old Tupi.

Semi-aquatic amazon weasel we can call eiba - weasel in Chibcha language, if it get from Amazonia to Orinoco and will get to the extensive swamps of the Orinoco Delta.

I also think that the ocelot can live on the coast of Maracaibo and catch large fish, water birds and cubs of algocetus. We can call him awaruwape - legendary jaguar in Carib language.

And brazilian guinea pig can became an analogue of peccary and eat aquatic plants on the shore of the bay.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

And i think we can make out of a Geoffroy's cat a big semi-aquatic creature the size of a jaguar in the lakes of Argentina (two speces: one in the great lakes and rivers of Santa Cruz province we will call it Oochel - Geoffroy's cat in Tehuelche language, second in salt lake Mar Chiquita charaba - cacique in the languge sanavirona.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.03.23 15:44. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be we can сall water tayra - aira - in Carib language or eîrara in Old Tupi.


What do you think of Yara or Uiara? It's the name of a siren in the Brazilian folklore and a literal translation means "the one that lives in the waters" from old tupi. Since this species would expend most of the time at water, this name can suit it.


 цитата:
Semi-aquatic amazon weasel we can call eiba - weasel in Chibcha language, if it get from Amazonia to Orinoco and will get to the extensive swamps of the Orinoco Delta.


I like this name. Perhaps other species in this genus could have spread to other rivers of Amazon, including the Orinoco.


 цитата:
I also think that the ocelot can live on the coast of Maracaibo and catch large fish, water birds and cubs of algocetus. We can call him awaruwape - legendary jaguar in Carib language.


It could be like the jaguars of Pantanal, which are adapted to hunt aquatic animals in the marshlands. I think that algocetus' cubs would be a very occasional prey. Cubs of barocavia would be more common in their diet.


 цитата:
And i think we can make out of a Geoffroy's cat a big semi-aquatic creature the size of a jaguar in the lakes of Argentina (two speces: one in the great lakes and rivers of Santa Cruz province we will call it Oochel - Geoffroy's cat in Tehuelche language, second in salt lake Mar Chiquita charaba - cacique in the languge sanavirona.


Would they actively hunt underwater or be like a jaguar, being capable of swimming and catching prey in the water occasionally? There is mythologies about water panthers, perhaps these two cats could be like them.

I also thought that a giant darter (Anhinga) could live in the Maracaibo gulf. I'm in doubt if it would need to be flightless.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.03.23 17:37. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Yar..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Yara


I like the name!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Perhaps other species in this genus could have spread to other rivers of Amazon, including the Orinoco.


Ok! let it be!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It could be like the jaguars of Pantanal, which are adapted to hunt aquatic animals in the marshlands. I think that algocetus' cubs would be a very occasional prey. Cubs of barocavia would be more common in their diet.


Yes! I absolutely agree!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Would they actively hunt underwater or be like a jaguar, being capable of swimming and catching prey in the water occasionally? There is mythologies about water panthers, perhaps these two cats could be like them.


I think the first species from Santa Cruz will hunt undewater, the second from the salt lake Mar Chiquita wil be like jaguar.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
There is mythologies about water panthers, perhaps these two cats could be like them.


What is this legend and what is the name of this water panthers?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I also thought that a giant darter (Anhinga) could live in the Maracaibo gulf. I'm in doubt if it would need to be flightless.


Let it be flightless!

And what do you think about brazilian guinea pig that became an analogue of White-lipped peccary and eat the plants on the shore of the Maracaibo gulf?
I just can't think of a name for it.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.03.23 20:51. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: What ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
What is this legend and what is the name of this water panthers?


There is several myths about such creatures in different parts of the world. The indigenous peoples of the Northeastern Woodlands and Great Lakes region in North America had the mishipeshu, also know as the water lynx. There is a creature in Amazonian folklore that is called the tapire-iaura and is described as a water jaguar with size of a cow that hunts in the flooded forests. In Chile, the Mapuche had legends about a creature called Nguruvilu, a half fox and half snake that cause dangerous whirlpools which kill people who try to cross rivers.


 цитата:
And what do you think about brazilian guinea pig that became an analogue of White-lipped peccary and eat the plants on the shore of the Maracaibo gulf?
I just can't think of a name for it.


I like it! Perhaps its name could have something related with the peccari (since they are going to fit in its niche) and cuy (the spanish name of the guinea pig). I think that they could even be like a capybara.
Other animals living in the Maracaibo gulf and the Catatumbo delta could be large snakes and turtles. If we have more species, the region (delta+gulf) could be a good place for a chapter.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 00:24. Заголовок: Let us call the hunt..


Let us call the hunting underwater cat from Santa Cruz Nguruvilu and the second cat tapiraiaura.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Perhaps its name could have something related with the peccari (since they are going to fit in its niche) and cuy (the spanish name of the guinea pig). I think that they could even be like a capybara.


Then it can be kapìwa - capybara in carib language, or better cabiai-pyinko: from the words in carib language cabiai - cavy and pyinko - white-lipped peccary.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Other animals living in the Maracaibo gulf and the Catatumbo delta could be large snakes and turtles.


Also we need birds and fishes. And may be the blue crab - Ucides cordatus (in carib language - kusa)

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
the region (delta+gulf) could be a good place for a chapter.


This is the main purpose of our discussion

And it will be interesting to make chapter about Nguruvilu for example in this lake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Carrera_Lake
the other animals of the chapter could be Lagostomus maximus (will be analogue of water deer), Galictis cuja (will be analogue of bear eating on the shore the different mammals, water birds and eggs, snakes, amphibians), Cerdocyon thous (will be smaller, may be with some features of nutria, will be eating water species: fishes, amphibians and swiming birds).

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 01:19. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Let u..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Let us call the hunting underwater cat from Santa Cruz Nguruvilu and the second cat tapiraiaura.


I agree!

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Then it can be kapìwa - capybara in carib language, or better cabiai-pyinko: from the words in carib language cabiai - cavy and pyinko - white-lipped peccary.


I prefer cabiai-pyinko. Now that I think about it, this species would also be a prey of the descendant of the ocelot.


 цитата:
Also we need birds and fishes. And may be the blue crab - Ucides cordatus (in carib language - kusa)


We have the giant anhinga (a local name would be good for it). There could be rail, a descendant of the black-bellied whistling duck and perhaps a descendant of the sungrebe. I'll need to search about the fish, but the descendant of the blue crab could be one of the prey of the yara.


 цитата:
And it will be interesting to make chapter about Nguruvilu for example in this lake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Carrera_Lake
the other animals of the chapter could be Lagostomus maximus (will be analogue of water deer), Galictis cuja (will be analogue of bear eating on the shore the different mammals, water birds and eggs, snakes, amphibians), Cerdocyon thous (will be smaller, may be with some features of nutria, will be eating water species: fishes, amphibians and swiming birds).


I like it! This lake have populations of brown and rainbow trouts that can have 5 to 6 kg. There could be descendants of these two species filling different niches in the lake.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 01:47. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:

I prefer cabiai-pyinko.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Now that I think about it, this species would also be a prey of the descendant of the ocelot.


Yes, sure!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
a local name would be good for it


I'll try to find.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
There could be rail, a descendant of the black-bellied whistling duck and perhaps a descendant of the sungrebe.


Very good choice of the birds!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
the descendant of the blue crab could be one of the prey of the yara.


I think so too!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I'll need to search about the fish,


Yes, please!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
There could be descendants of these two species filling different niches in the lake.


Ok, very good.

Is there any crustaceans in this lake? They could be the good prey for Nguruvilu and for Cerdocyon thous.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 11:00. Заголовок: Galictis cuja can ea..


Galictis cuja can eat barocavias on the shores of the lake.

Also we can use in the chapter Lyncodon patagonicus, but I haven't yet come up with it niche.

And I think we can use in the chapter Spizaetus ornatus - it can be as giant as Haast's eagle and hunting on deermaras and animals of equal size, it will nest in the Patagonian Andes.

Also we can make an analogue of Rhea pennata from Tinamotis ingoufi.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 14:55. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Galic..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Galictis cuja can eat barocavias on the shores of the lake.


The barocavias of this region could be another species. Perhaps smaller and shaggier than the ones of the tropical areas.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Also we can use in the chapter Lyncodon patagonicus, but I haven't yet come up with it niche.


It could be like a ferret, hunting rodents inside their underground dens.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
And I think we can use in the chapter Spizaetus ornatus - it can be as giant as Haast's eagle and hunting on deermaras and animals of equal size, it will nest in the Patagonian Andes.


Maybe the Geranoetus melanoleucus would be a better ancestor? It's adapted to live in the Andes and open areas.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Also we can make an analogue of Rhea pennata from Tinamotis ingoufi.


The Neocene already have the Pampas giant tinamou. It inhabits the Patagonia, so it already fills this niche.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 17:33. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Inte..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Interesting discussion


Thanks!

JOrnitho, so we have such a bestiary for the future chapter about Maracaibo Gulf (let's think of a chapter title).
Here will be capibaras and algocetuses

New species
1. Yara - water descendent of tayra.
2. Awaruwape - jaguar-like descendent of ocelot
3. Cabiai-pyinko - peccary-like descendent of brazilian guinea pig
4. Karara - flightless descendent of giant darter (Anhinga) (in Carib language karara means and darter, and cormorant).
5. descendent of rail*
6. Kàwiriri - descendent of Dendrocygna autumnalis (Kàwiriri - is the name of this duck in carib language).
7. Cyculi - descendent of sungrebe (Heliornis fulica) (Cyculi - is the name of the bird in Guahibo language)
8. Kusa - descendant of blue crab (Ucides cordatus)


The name of the rail will depend of it species:
Porphyrula martinica: karapisuru purple gallinule - best of all I like this one
Aramides cajanea: kotaka grey-necked wood-rail
Rallus maculatus: akatasuwe spotted rail
Rallus longirostris: sansaparu clapper rail

Snakes
kuwasakara - watersnake sp. ( it can be Pseudoeryx relictualis, Helicops scalaris, Hydrops triangularis, Liophis spp.)
akurimopi - indigosnake (Drymarchon corais)
asakaimo - rattlesnake [Crotalus durissus)
okoju (it is spelling okoyu) - Xenodon severus
sakompo any snake of Boidae family
urupere or okojumo (it is spelling okoyumo) - carib mithological snake monsters
sakurakura - any snake.

Turtles
arakaka - Guiana wood turtle, scorpion mud turtle, galap (Rhinoclemmys punctularia) - sometimes found in Lake Maracaibo, we can give this name arakaka to Rhinoclemmys diademata (the endemic of Maracaibo)

Sea turtle
tarekaja (Caretta caretta)
but this species is vulnerable

katusi or wajamu (it is spelling wayamu) - any turtle.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 20:13. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: JOrni..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
JOrnitho, so we have such a bestiary for the future chapter about Maracaibo Gulf (let's think of a chapter title).


Nice! I'll start to work in these descriptions.


 цитата:
Porphyrula martinica: karapisuru purple gallinule - best of all I like this one
Rallus maculatus: akatasuwe spotted rail


Since they fill different niches, I think that we could have a rail and a gallinule.

What do you think of an Anaconda like snake living in the region? Are sea turtles still alive in the Neocene?

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лягушка
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 11:33. Заголовок: Interesting discussi..


Interesting discussion, I'll read it today!

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медведь





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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.03.23 20:38. Заголовок: Are sea turtles stil..



 цитата:
Are sea turtles still alive in the Neocene?


No. But there are turtles from the new family Neoathecae (False scuteless turtles) from which the Atlantic bat turtle lays its eggs on the shores of the Amazon and Hippolyte rivers.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.03.23 01:36. Заголовок: медведь пишет: No. ..


медведь пишет:

 цитата:
No. But there are turtles from the new family Neoathecae (False scuteless turtles) from which the Atlantic bat turtle lays its eggs on the shores of the Amazon and Hippolyte rivers.


Then this species can appear in this chapter.

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