Отправлено: 18.05.22 16:06. Заголовок: Fauna of North America

I decided to open a topic for this continent, since it was the only one that remained without one in the foreign section.
I was thinking about the possibility of the snakehead fish and the peacock bass, both introduced species in the USA, surviving in the Neocene. Does it seems plausible? Another animal that could live here is a descendant of the house sparrow. It was also introduced here.

 Отправлено: 17.07.23 21:03. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Both..

wovoka пишет:

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Both ideas are cool.

Do you know the zebu cattle? The American oryx could have a rump like they have, but it would be functional.

 Отправлено: 17.07.23 21:20. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Do ..

JOrnitho пишет:

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Do you know the zebu cattle? The American oryx could have a rump like they have, but it would be functional.

JOrnitho пишет:

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but develop a rump with the same function of the camel?

I just have had an idea to make something like camelops from desert deer maras. But now I don't know how to divide the niches of zebu-oryx & mara-camelops

 Отправлено: 17.07.23 21:29. Заголовок: From those, I think ..

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From those, I think that Antilope cervicapra and Oryx gazella have the highest chances. Both have stable populations and the A. cervicapra even have a large population. If they survive, I think that they would be endemic to grasslands and arid regions of Texas, Mexico and New Mexico. I support the Oryx here only so it could be the last representative of its genus, living far away from their homeland (I love oryxes ).

Will they survive the Ice Age?

 Отправлено: 17.07.23 21:34. Заголовок: медведь пишет: Will..

медведь пишет:

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Will they survive the Ice Age?

If they will live in Mexico, why not?

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 02:15. Заголовок: медведь пишет: Will..

медведь пишет:

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Will they survive the Ice Age?

I think that it's possible. These antelopes are living in New Mexico (close to Northern Mexico) and Texas. I think that the climate of the region would remain warm enough to allow them to survive. Temperature there can go beyond the 40 °C. It would be improbably if they were living in Canada or Montana.

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 01:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho, you give m..

JOrnitho, you give me an idea to make chapter about invasive species in North America.

I like wiki article about invasive species of Florida.

I choose such species.

1. Rhesus macaque (Macaca mulatta) will make as much aquatic as possible.
2. Capybara (Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris) we need to make something unusual with it.
3. Red fox (Vulpes vulpes) also semiaquatic.

4. Muscovy duck (Cairina moschata)
5. Red-whiskered bulbul (Pycnonotus jocosus)
6. Sturnus vulgaris
7. Indian peacock (Pavo cristatus)

8. Argentine black and white tegu (Salvator merianae)
9. Black spiny-tailed iguana (Ctenosaura similis)
10. Burmese python (Python bivittatus)
11. Trioceros jacksonii

12. Common coquí (Eleutherodactylus coqui)
13. Cuban tree frog (Osteopilus septentrionalis)

14. Northern snakehead (Channa argus)

15. Euglossa dilemma (green orchid bee)
16. Platydemus manokwari (New Guinea flatworm)
17. Amynthas agrestis (Crazy worm)
18.Melanoides tuberculata (Red-rimmed melania)

19. Aedes albopictus (Asian tiger mosquito)
20. Coptotermes formosanus (Formosan subterranean termite)

21. Icerya purchasi (Cottony cushion scale)
22. Harmonia axyridis (Harlequin ladybird)
23. Pheidole megacephala (Big-headed ant)
24. Cordylophora caspia (Euryhaline hydroid)

25. Lygodium microphyllum (Old World climbing fern)
26. Albizia lebbeck
27. Casuarina glauca
28. Ardisia elliptica
29. Dioscorea alata
30. Dioscorea bulbifera
31. Pontederia crassipes
32. Heptapleurum actinophyllum
33. Ipomoea aquatica
34. Jasminium dichotomum
35. Manilkara zapota
36. Nymphoides hydrophylla
37. Psidium Cattleyanum
38. Rhodomyrtus tomentosa
39. Ruellia simplex
40. Syzygium cumini

The bestiary is too big, will have to cut.

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 02:38. Заголовок: I have some suggesti..

I have some suggestions for now:

wovoka пишет:

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1. Rhesus macaque (Macaca mulatta) will make as much aquatic as possible. 2. Capybara (Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris) we need to make something unusual with it. 3. Red fox (Vulpes vulpes) also semiaquatic.

The Rhesus could become a swamp monkey, swimming to collect crustaceans and mussels. I'm not sure about the capybara, but I think that the red fox could evolve to hunt fish, like how the water civet and the fisher cat do.

wovoka пишет:

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4. Muscovy duck (Cairina moschata) 5. Red-whiskered bulbul (Pycnonotus jocosus) 6. Sturnus vulgaris 7. Indian peacock (Pavo cristatus)

The Muscovy duck could make nests in trees. The red-whiskered bulbul could develop an elaborated mating ritual. I a descendant of the Sturnus vulgaris could live across all temperate woodlands of North America, forming large flocks. These flocks could migrate to Amazon during winter. Maybe we could have some new pluamage and mating ritual for the peacock?

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 07:20. Заголовок: Interesting ideas. ..

Interesting ideas.

I think could Sturnus vulgaris became like Haematopus?

The chapter may be named "The invaders from other worlds".

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 10:15. Заголовок: If they will live in..

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If they will live in Mexico, why not?

But the climate will become even more arid there during the Ice Age. At least for the Blackbuck it can be too dry then.

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1. Rhesus macaque (Macaca mulatta) will make as much aquatic as possible. 2. Capybara (Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris) we need to make something unusual with it.

I am not sure if they will survive when Florida will become drier either. And how big is the Capybara population there?

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 12:01. Заголовок: медведь пишет: Blac..

медведь пишет:

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Blackbuck

Black buck we are going to settle to south America? to Mexico we are going to settle Gemsbok? if they live in Kalahari and Namib Desert, they will survive everywere.

медведь пишет:

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I am not sure if they will survive when Florida will become drier either.

Rhesus macaque can live in absolutely different nature zones "Macaca mulatta lives in a wide range of habitats, and shows a great deal of adaptability. Some populations live in flatlands, while others, in northern India and Pakistan, live in the Himalayas at elevations up to 3,000 m. These primates are able to aclimate to a variety of climatic extremes, from the hot, dry temperatures found in deserts, to cold winter temperatures which fall to well below the freezing point."
So they will survive!

In dry seasons capybaras can live in savannas and graze like normal herbivores animals. I think they can survive during Ice Age in Everglades. Now in Florida the largest population of capybaras has 50 individuals, but these animals multiply quite quickly. So in 25 million years, it could be a pretty stable population there, especially when the climate gets wet again.

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 12:15. Заголовок: медведь пишет: But ..

медведь пишет:

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But the climate will become even more arid there during the Ice Age. At least for the Blackbuck it can be too dry then.

Like wokova said, we decided to have the gemsbok being the one living in the arid regions of North America. We can even say in the description that the hump was developed due to pressures from the increase of arid conditions during the last Ice Age.

wovoka пишет:

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In dry seasons capybaras can live in savannas and graze like normal herbivores animals. I think they can survive during Ice Age in Everglades. Now in Florida the largest population of capybaras has 50 individuals, but these animals multiply quite quickly. So in 25 million years, it could be a pretty stable population there, especially when the climate gets wet again.

Such small number of ancestors will leave mutations. Maybe we could have dwarf capybaras with the size of a guinea pig?

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 14:44. Заголовок: JOrnitho From those..

JOrnitho

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From those, I think that Antilope cervicapra and Oryx gazella have the highest chances. Both have stable populations and the A. cervicapra even have a large population. If they survive, I think that they would be endemic to grasslands and arid regions of Texas, Mexico and New Mexico. I support the Oryx here only so it could be the last representative of its genus, living far away from their homeland (I love oryxes ).

Sorry, but I don't belive in their survival. Their population is stable but not very big, and habitat might turn into stony desert in times of "Dixon's" glaciation. Other proof of their death is existence of asinohippus and rapidocervus - descendants of less adapted creatures that fill niche of antelopes. If oryx and blackbuck survivd, niche of running gregarious herbivores would be filled by their descendants, not deers and donkeys.
wowoka

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or even have more big hornes like pelorovis antiquus and form of body like magaloceros giganteus

Basal group of rapidocervus lineage can fill niche of megaloceros deer, but i think there is no animal group at neocene's North America tht can evolveat pelorvis-like forms.

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 18:50. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Suc..

JOrnitho пишет:

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Such small number of ancestors will leave mutations. Maybe we could have dwarf capybaras with the size of a guinea pig?

Yes, they may have some kind of mutations, but so what?, this is a normal process in nature, and we are trying to describe real, not embellished evolution. For example, the Florida capybara population may have hereditary autoimmune diseases that cause accelerated aging, such as progeroid syndromes, and only the species' fertility will save it from extinction.

лягушка пишет:

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Basal group of rapidocervus lineage can fill niche of megaloceros deer, but i think there is no animal group at neocene's North America tht can evolveat pelorvis-like forms.

Yes Rapidocervus albocephalus can take a niche of megaloceros deer.

лягушка пишет:

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Their population is stable but not very big, and habitat might turn into stony desert in times of "Dixon's" glaciation

12000 oryx dammah in Texas, 4000 oryx gazella in New Mexico. And they can have fertile hybrids that can breed in wilderness, that called Scimbok or Oryx scimbok. And Oryx are not turtles: they can migrate on very big distances to the South in the period of "Dixon's" glaciation. So they can survive but I think they can became much more bigger than rapidocervus and asinohippus and take the niche of megalops. It will be very big with the body shape that propose JOrnitho. And like camelides they could eat cactuses.


So let's make bestiary about Death valley.

There will be in episodes with Aepythizon ursinus, Dromeogallus meleagroides, Helodermopsis monstrosus, Phascohyaena tigrina

1. big zebu like oryx - I think it will be very big species like megalops.
2. humped desert deer maras.
3. Rapidocervus asellinus
4. Nahashchʼidí - Agriotherium like american badger (from navajo language) collectively hunting with big coyotes
5. Mąʼii - Epycione like coyote (from navajo language) collectively hunting with big badger.
6. Bassariscus astutus - https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1689675034792-00000142-000-10001-0#009 but need to be redescribed
7. Vulpes macrotis
8. Cactus Mouse
9. Brush Mouse
10. Neotoma cinerea
11. Neotoma lepida
12. Neotamias panamintinus
13. Dipodomys merriami
14. Ammospermophilus leucurus
15. Deltura colubridae-esus https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1689672508264-00000181-000-10001-0#065
16. Phainopepla nitens
17. Agelaius phoeniceus
18. Passerina amoena or Passerina caerulea or Passerina cyanea
19. Sialia currucoides
20.Callipepla gambelii
21. Geococcyx californianus
22. Toxostoma lecontei
23. Chordeiles acutipennis or Buteo jamaicensis or Buteo lineatus
24. Colaptes auratus
25. Aphelocoma californica
26. Quiscalus mexicanus
27. Crotaphytus collaris
28. Lampropeltis getula californiae
29. Masticophis flagellum
30. Sceloporus magister
31. Crotalus cerastes or Crotalus scutulatus (with horns of first and purple tonge of second)
32. Phrynosoma platyrhinos
33. Plestiodon skiltonianus
34. Sauromalus ater
35. Coleonyx variegatus.
36. Wernerius inyoensis
37. Gambelia wislizenii
38. Solenopsis xyloni
39. Anthophora pueblo
40. Larrea tridentata
41. Pinus longaeva
42. Prosopis glandulosa
43. Fouquieria splendens
44. Atriplex canescens
45. Coleogyne ramosissima
46. Yucca brevifolia
47. Juniperus californica
48. Geraea canescens
49. Lupinus excubitus
50. Castilleja applegatei
51. Opuntia basilaris
52. Echinocereus engelmannii
53. Opuntia erinacea

This is the maximum list, it should be cut to 19 species.
The green is that species that will be included into list.

JOrnitho, which species you will be left in the list?

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 20:31. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Sorr..

лягушка пишет:

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Sorry, but I don't belive in their survival. Their population is stable but not very big, and habitat might turn into stony desert in times of "Dixon's" glaciation. Other proof of their death is existence of asinohippus and rapidocervus - descendants of less adapted creatures that fill niche of antelopes. If oryx and blackbuck survivd, niche of running gregarious herbivores would be filled by their descendants, not deers and donkeys.

This is why I think that only the oryx have the best chances os surviving. The blackbuck is too dependant of water to survive in the arid desert that would result of the glaciation. They are naturally adapted to walk long distances in arid regions, so they could migrate to more wet areas during the drier periods. I also think that there would be only one descendant of the oryx living in the region, filling a more specialized niche to dry areas. Donkeys and rapidocervus can easily still live there, since the oryx shares its habitat with zebras, wild asses (both Somali and onagers) and gazelles (rapidocervus are analogues to them). The oryx would be a stocky desert dwelling species that is constantly moving in search of food and water, plus with a rhump to help control the temperature. I also think that it'll not be fast, using more its endurance and harduous habitat to avoid pretation. Like how the Addax do in the Sahara.
There is also the fact that during dry periods, the oryx can change from grasing to browsing depending of the disponibility of food. They can also stay a long time without drinking water. Its another point that shows the possibility of their survival.

wovoka пишет:

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Yes, they may have some kind of mutations, but so what?, this is a normal process in nature, and we are trying to describe real, not embellished evolution. For example, the Florida capybara population may have hereditary autoimmune diseases that cause accelerated aging, such as progeroid syndromes, and only the species' fertility will save it from extinction.

Perhaps Florida becoming dryer during the Ice Age could have influenced the capybaras becoming less aquatic?

wovoka пишет:

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12000 oryx dammah in Texas, 4000 oryx gazella in New Mexico. And they can have fertile hybrids that can breed in wilderness, that called Scimbok or Oryx scimbok. And Oryx are not turtles: they can migrate on very big distances to the South in the period of "Dixon's" glaciation. So they can survive but I think they can became much more bigger than rapidocervus and asinohippus and take the niche of megalops. It will be very big with the body shape that propose JOrnitho. And like camelides they could eat cactuses.

There is also that. If hybrids are fertile, these two populations could interbreed to the point of becoming only one thing. They are also mobile, walking for several kilometers. This allows them to meet. Regarding the size, I agree that they could be larger and bulkier than their ancestors, but not exactly bull-like. They could also have adaptations in the mouth to eat cactuses, even digging after food, which is something that oryxes already do.

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 22:34. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: JOrni..

wovoka пишет:

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JOrnitho, which species you will be left in the list?

I'll work on that when I get home, but some that I already think that could remain are the numbers 7, 8, Passerina cyanea and Chordeiles acutipennis.

Still about the survival of oryxes, I was reading about hybridization in this genus and O. dammah x O. gazella can generate fertile hybrids that reproduce back with the sire species. I was suprised that even Oryx and Addax hybrids are fertile.
Another point is about competition. I read in the descriptions of Arsinohippus, deermaras and Rapidocervus, coming to the conclusion that the oryx could avoid direct competition with them by living only in deserts and xeric shrublands, feeding on hard plants (changing grom grasing to browsing according to the availability) and having specialized mouths that allow them eat cactuses.
The explanation for how this lineage survived: in the late Holocene, the populations of O. dammah and O. gazella roamed through the arid regions of North America, with the two species interbreeding until they became only one lineage. This ancestral lineage generated some others, but those went extinct due to competition with other species and the Ice Age. The only one that survived was the rhumped oryx, a species endemic to the deserts (Mojave, Sonora and Norther Chihuahua) that had became more adapted to this biome than its ancestors (the rhump, capable of feeling where is rain is falling, great endurance, staying months without drinking, being active in crepuscular hours and mouth adapted to eat cactuses).

 Отправлено: 18.07.23 23:17. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I&#..

JOrnitho пишет:

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I'll work on that when I get home, but some that I already think that could remain are the numbers 7, 8, Passerina cyanea and Chordeiles acutipennis.

Ok!

I agree with you!

 Отправлено: 19.07.23 04:53. Заголовок: wovoka The last spec..

wovoka
The last species species that could appear in the chapter is the Yucca brevifolia, with its fruits and leaves being eaten by the oryx. Since the animal will be tall, I think that it can reach the leaves of these desert trees. A chapter about the Death Valley could be about the migration of the rhumped oryx through the desert, being followed by rapidocervus (which could feed on pieces of tall cactuses and fruits that the antelope left behind). A tall cactus could be the descendant of the Opuntia basilaris.
While was doing my search for facts to support the survival of the oryx, I discovered that the scimitar oryx already is capable of spending nearly a year without drinking water. These things are really resistant to deserts, both with dunes and stony ones. What also helps them survive there is their nomadic lifestyle, always moving in search of food. We could also bring in consideration that they can forage at crepuscular hours as a fact that can help avoid competition with other local species.

 Отправлено: 19.07.23 11:52. Заголовок: wovoka, JOrnitho Yu..

wovoka, JOrnitho

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Yucca brevifolia

Soppy, but yucca went exctinct on mainland north America according chapter apout Hawaiian flora. But it is not big loss - I think that arboreal pricky hear is enough to feed both oryxes and rapidocervuses withoutbuing eradicated by them.

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scimitar oryx already is capable of spending nearly a year without drinking water

If they can do this, I think they would survive and evolve into camelid analogue. Gazella is not so adapted, so it can die out but dissolve into oryx gene pool, creating a hybrid species.

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pleistocene american camelides.

I dot't like this ideas and think that only one clade will take camel niches. Huge camelops-like browsers would be related to camel-oryxes if they exist, maybe even placed in the same genus.

 Отправлено: 19.07.23 08:39. Заголовок: Then I take Colaptes..

Then I take Colaptes auratus instead of Callipepla gambelii.
Colaptes will make holes in yucca for birds and rodents to make nests.

How we will avoid competition between oryx and desert bear porcupine (Aepythizon ursinus)?

May be we shouldn't include humped desert deer maras? I just want to make from desert deer maras something like pleistocene american camelides.

 Отправлено: 19.07.23 14:31. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Sopp..

лягушка пишет:

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Soppy, but yucca went exctinct on mainland north America according chapter apout Hawaiian flora. But it is not big loss - I think that arboreal pricky hear is enough to feed both oryxes and rapidocervuses withoutbuing eradicated by them.

wovoka пишет:

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Then I propose to live in chapter Prosopis glandulosa, commonly known as honey mesquite.

Yes, I think that Prosopis is a good replacement. Its descendant could be a desert tree and the pods would still attract animals, while being tall the oryx would be able to reach the leaves.

лягушка пишет:

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If they can do this, I think they would survive and evolve into camelid analogue. Gazella is not so adapted, so it can die out but dissolve into oryx gene pool, creating a hybrid species.

My idea was to turn the oryx descendant into a camelid analogue with rhump (but also with the adaptations that this antelope had. The idea for the O. gazella is good, its genes would become part of the pool of the rhumped oryx, but the ancestor would be de facto O. dammah.
I was searching and found out that a scimitar oryx can stay 10 months to a year without drinking. It is even more adapted than a camel, that only can do that for some weeks.

лягушка пишет:

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I dot't like this ideas and think that only one clade will take camel niches. Huge camelops-like browsers would be related to camel-oryxes if they exist, maybe even placed in the same genus.

wovoka пишет:

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How we will avoid competition between oryx and desert bear porcupine (Aepythizon ursinus)?

The oryx can eat leaves and dry plants that the porcupine don't appreciate. I also thought that the two species could tolerate each other for protection. The porcupine would follow oryxes herds because they are capable of feeling where rain is falling and because their sight, hearing and numbers allow them to detect predators fast. In the other hand, the oryxes would appreciate the rodent's presence because few predators will try to attack them while the spiny porcupine is around, because it'll try to defend itself while the animal try to kill the entelopes.

wovoka пишет:

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May be we shouldn't include humped desert deer maras? I just want to make from desert deer maras something like pleistocene american camelides.

Yes, let's only have the rhumped oryx as the camelid analogue. The Neocene already have a desert deermara, but living in the Mexican Plateau as an analogue to gazelles.