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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.04.21 21:02. Заголовок: Neocene Florida expanded


I live in the southeastern USA (North Carolina to be exact) and I have read the article on Neocene Florida. In the present, Florida has a huge problem with invasive species, such as Burmese Pythons, Nile Monitors and Green Iguanas just to name a few. Despite attempts by the state to exterminate these animals, these creatures seem to be doing quite well, even surviving cold snaps and some scientists believe these invasive species are evolving to deal with the climate of Florida (there are many articles on this, I wasn't able to link them). Since Neocene Florida will be much warmer and wetter than it is today and be covered in Mangrove swamps, I think it is within the realm of possibility that these creatures could survive the human epoch, persevere through the ice age and mass extinction and evolve into new forms that would flourish in the warmer ecosystems of Florida 25 million years in the future. Your thoughts? I'm very interested to hear what some people on this forum think about the potential possibilities that these invasive species could have if they were to survive in Neocene Florida.

Hey btw, Have new organisms, but the website won't let me reply or edit my profile, can somebody help?

But yeah here's some of my ideas:
New World Pythons: Descendants of Burmese Pythons, they are found across the Gulf of Mexico, from Georgia to Mexico and the Caribbean. This genus consists of creatures of various sizes, with the largest reaching 9 meters.

Halpatta: Descendants of the invasive Nile Monitor that have taken the niche of the now extinct American Alligator.

North American Tegus: Descendants of Tegus, which in the present have expanded deep into the Southeast USA. Due to their ability to withstand colder temperatures, they are very widespread, with many diverse forms and lifestyles.

Carp: Introduced as a big game fish, these large fishes would thrive in Neocene North America, due to the climate and abundance of food. I can definitely see some larger forms evolving in the future.

Snakeheads: Another invasive species, snakeheads are a very successful invasive species and their amphibious lifestyle would be ideal for the mangrove swamps.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.05.21 23:31. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

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The ancestor could have evolved in South America to fill the niche leaved by the extinction of Ara and Anodorhynchus.


So, it may form some genera because of two ways of settling to North America:
1) via Panama land bridge - the descendant of early radiation of proto-pseudo-macaws. It will be represented by relic rather primitive genus in Central America (Yucatan);
2) via Antillean bridge - descendants of radiation of more advanced forms from South America reached North America and settled in Florida and along Gulf of Mexico coast to the south to meet a relic species mentioned above.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 08:28. Заголовок: Автор So I've th..


Автор So I've thought about the lizard species and decided that the aquatic lizards would be varanids, while there would be a fair amount of diversity amongst descendants of iguanas. Tegus would remain mid-sized omnivores. As for others, I think that Anole diversity would be high.
There are two Anole species in Florida today: the native green anole and the invasive brown anole. Despite competition from the newcomers, the Green Anoles still thrive and have changed their lifestyle by adopting a more arboreal lifestyle, while the invasive browns are still terrestrial. So it would be safe to assume that descendants of the brown anole would be more terrestrial and the green anole descendants would be adapted to the trees.
Also, due to the climate and landscape of Florida, I think a lot of lizard (and animals in general) species would adapt a semi-aquatic lifestyle, which would make it easier for a few of them to colonize the islands and potentially even South America. I could see semi-aquatic descendants of the green iguana populating not only Florida but also Cuba and Great Antigua. Aquatic Varanids could also become widespread in the region: the Nile Monitor is already very well adapted to life in Mangrove Swamps. And given the existence of a land bridge that existed before the Neocene connecting North and South America, it would be hard to believe "Floridian" fauna in South America, such as Varanids or possibly some Python species.
So the Halpattas (New World aquatic varanids) would be found in the Southeast US, eastern and southern Mexico, central America, the Caribbean and south America. These animals evolved from the Nile monitors and have taken the niche from the extinct crocodilians in the Caribbean Basin.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 16:49. Заголовок: Автор I like the ide..


Автор I like the idea of a primitive pseudo-macaw living in Yucatan Peninsula. About the species in Florida, I think that these birds could have more generalist feeding habits, this way not competing with other psittacids there. Also I think that the diversity of this group would be in South America and the center of their distribution could be the Amazon rainforest, with the ancestral bird first appearing there and spreading for other locations.
Who could be the ancestor of this group: Aratinga or Pyrrhura? Some representatives of these groups are resilient and can live in cities.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 18:24. Заголовок: JOrnitho But why it..


JOrnitho
But why it will be pseudo - ara. Aras can penetrate on the Great Antigua by islands from South America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 21:48. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Yes, but..


Фельдфебель
Yes, but I don't think that the true members of the genus Ara would survive into the Neocene due to the human actions and destruction of their habitats. So the birds that fill its niche will probably be descendants of small and more resilient species of psittacid (for example Aratinga and Pyrrhura). This is why these birds would be some sort of pseudo-macaws.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 22:52. Заголовок: JOrnitho When they s..


JOrnitho When they scolded Deinoara, which was created by Мамонт, there was no such item. Just look:

 цитата:
Кубинский дейноара - не принимается, переход к открытому гнездованию и выводковому развитию у попугаев выглядит маловероятным, плюс на Кубе возможно наличие наземных хищников, поскольку это часть Антильского моста.


what will be translated as:s
Cuban deinoara - not accepted, the transition to open nesting and brood development in parrots looks unlikely, plus there may be land predators in Cuba, since this is part of the Antilles bridge.
In addition, there are parrots with this name, only in...Madagascar.

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Прильнувший к микроскопу




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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 12:02. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Wow, gr..


Фельдфебель
Wow, great English! Oh, sorry for the offtop...

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 23:41. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Well I o..


Фельдфебель
Well I only refering to this bird as a pseudo-macaw because Автор regarded them as large macaw-like parakeets. You can see there:
пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think about the possibility of the evolution of large macaw-like parakeets in island habitats of Caribbean Sea including Cuba and Great Antigua?


I also understood by it that these birds would be descendants of some species of parakeet (this is why I suggested Aratinga or Pyrrhura)
And this isn't the species name. The pseudo-macaw is a provisory name for these large macaw-like parakeets. A possible name for it could be Neoara, the new Ara. Or if a regional name is alowed, I can find some Brazilian or Guarani potential names for this genus.
About the survival of Ara, well if the Author agrees with them surviving, then I suppose that they could be the ancestors of these birds. However, many species of macaw (from both Genus Ara and Anodorhynchus) are threatened by habitat loss and hunting to be turned into ilegal pets. These birds also rarely nest in cities (at least in Brazil) so I don't know if they would be suited to survive into the Neocene due the human pressure.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 13:41. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: wel..


JOrnitho пишет:

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well if the Author agrees with them surviving


I mean the possibility of small parakeets to evolve to large macaw-like birds, not the survival of present-day macaws themselves.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 15:03. Заголовок: Автор Yes, it was wh..


Автор
Yes, it was what I understood when you asked about the existence of these large macaw like birds. I think that two genus that could be candidates for the ancestors of these birds are Aratinga or Pyrrhura, due to some of the species being resilient and surviving in urban areas.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 15:38. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: two..


JOrnitho пишет:

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two genus that could be candidates for the ancestors of these birds are Aratinga or Pyrrhura


As for the names of future genera of the animals and plants included to the project, we try to use any words from local languages within the ranges of the species in focus. The choice of the name is sometimes a really difficult task. In Russian part of the forum we even have a special thread - "Names of nonborn species", where we accumulate links to vocabularies of various folks of the world to choose a good name for our new inhabitant of the Neocene world.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 16:47. Заголовок: Автор I think that I..


Автор
I think that I can make a list of Brazilian/regional names and adjectives that can be used for species of the Neocene. For example, for the large macaw-like parakeet that can live in South America, there is these names:
Maracanã/Maracanan
Araguaí
Araguari
Araguasu
Aruaí
Tiriba
Jandaia
Maitaca
Curica
Aramitã/Aramitan

Most of these names are used as regional names for species of psittacids in Brazil, except Aramitã (new ara), which I created by joining Ara with mitã, Guarani word for new. These words have roots in the Guarani language.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 19:49. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Mar..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Maracanã/Maracanan
Araguaí
Araguari
Araguasu
Aruaí
Tiriba
Jandaia
Maitaca
Curica
Aramitã/Aramitan


Oh, it's cool. Beru k sebe.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 18:50. Заголовок: Автор But why aras ..


Автор
But why aras will not survive?
For example, the scarlet macaw is LC (least concern).
But in Neocene are descendants of the saiga, which is CR.
JOrnitho
I have just seen a TV news story about urban macaw parrots, which "Bring joy to the gloomy Caracas".

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 21:31. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Yes, som..


Фельдфебель
Yes, sometimes macaws will breed in cities, but it isn't common. Meanwhile small parakeets are more widespread, have large flocks in urban centers, some can use buildings to nest and have a more generalist diet. The large macaws (Ara and Anodorynchus) are more succeptible to the human impacts. They need large trees to nest, more food and are more sought by the wild animal trafficking.
But lets say that the Ara survive and leaves a descendant. In my opinion its descendants could be less widespread, perhaps restrict to the Amazon rainforest in South America, while the macaw-like parakeets suggested by Автор could be more widespread. This way we have a similar situation in Neocene with what happens nowadays between the Anodorhynchus macaws, more restrict to some areas and with only two living species, and the Ara macaws, more widespread.
So the Ara's descendants would be restrict to a certain region (perhaps even as a relict taxon), while the macaw-like parakeets became more succesful and spread from South America to Florida.
jorzek01
I was reading an article about the invasive species in Florida. There it said that green iguanas can sometimes eat snails, so I thought that perhaps one of the descendants this animal could evolve as a predator of a possible descendants of the African giant snail.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.05.21 19:31. Заголовок: Фельдфебель пишет: ..


Фельдфебель пишет:

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But in Neocene are descendants of the saiga, which is CR.


Saiga proved its ability to restore the population from almost extinct in 1920-th to 2 millions in the middle of XX century. That's why I assumed an existance of saiga descendant in Neocene. Now it is not CR, but VU.

Фельдфебель пишет:

 цитата:
Cuban deinoara - not accepted, the transition to open nesting and brood development in parrots looks unlikely, plus there may be land predators in Cuba, since this is part of the Antilles bridge.


It's not exact translation - I mean not "brood development", but "precocial development", like at geese and galliforms.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
green iguanas can sometimes eat snails, so I thought that perhaps one of the descendants this animal could evolve as a predator of a possible descendants of the African giant snail.


Maybe, tegu descendant seems to fit better to such role.
Talking about reptiles of future Florida, it's better (IMHO) to make a list of possible ecological roles of reptiles in ecosystems, and then to think about reptiles that can fill these niches more successfully.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.05.21 06:42. Заголовок: -Igauana: Remain her..


-Igauana: Remain herbivores. They are already quite successful in Florida, being found pretty much anywhere. I can see several specialized species arising, with some being arboreal, others semi-aquatic and others terrestrial. I agree that Tegus are better suited for eating giant snails, Iguanas are already successful herbivores and I doubt any would switch to carnivory, especially with Tegus and Nile Monitors around.
-Nile Monitor: I see them taking the niche of the Alligator and expanding southward into the Caribbean. Nile Monitors thrive in semi-aquatic habitats and it would be a logical jump for them to become crocodile-like predators in the future. In fact, in Florida, there favorite habitat is near canals and bodies of water. My idea for this animal is the Halpatta, which in the Seminole language means "alligator" and was the name of one of the tribes most famous chieftains.
-Tegus: Tegus are generalist omnivores with a relatively high cold tolerance. I see them taking traditional generalist type niches, with many specialized forms, and could see them expanding farther northward than the other two large lizard species, as Tegu populations have already been established in the states of Georgia and South Carolina in addition to Florida.


Ecological roles

Aquatic ambush predator: With crocodilians extinct, someone will have to take this role. Alligator snapping turtles are not native to Florida, while the Nile Monitor is already established. Given the facts above, I think this reptile can take this niche.

Small to medium sized herbivores: Iguanas are already one of the regions most successful herbivores, and while they probably will not be able to reach the status of large herbivore, I can see some descendants reaching bigger sizes than their ancestors. Think the Neocene Aquaguana of South America. Others might adapt to life in the trees. In tropical South America, Iguana thrive and Neocene Florida's climate will be absolutely ideal for them and there will be less competition. Introduced Burmese Pythons are already exterminating many of the smaller mammalian herbivores, leaving much of this niche open.

Generalist hunters: Opossums and racoons already fill this niche, but Tegus are still expanding into regions that these animals inhabit. Tegus are very adaptable and will eat just about anything.
And as stated in above, invasive Burmese Pythons have decimated populations of small mammals in south Florida. While this niche will have the most competition, monitor lizards and Tegus share their native habitats with generalist mammalian hunters, so its not a big leap of faith to think that descendants of Tegus and Monitors could take some of these niches. Maybe we could see a form of niche partitioning, with the large lizards specializing in one kind of food source or being active at a different time than their mammalian counterparts.

Then finally, Pythons. In Florida and the surrounding Gulf Coast, there are no large constrictors. Burmese Pythons have absolutely dominated the ecosystem since arriving in Florida in the 80s and i have little doubt they will continue to do the same if they survive into the Neocene, which I think is a very good chance. Also, native boas of North America (with the partial exception of the Boa Constrictor) are specialized and not as large on average. They are primarily arboreal. Thus, I think Burmese Pythons, if they did expand south, could evolve into even larger, terrestrial or semi-aquatic forms in the Caribbean and central America, although in the latter region they would have to compete with the Boa Constrictor. Even then however, the Burmese Python shares much of its native range in southeast Asia with the similarly sized Reticulated Python.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.05.21 16:36. Заголовок: jorzek01 Perhaps we ..


jorzek01
Perhaps we could have the monitor lizards evolving only in the Halpatta. With the extinction of the aligators, the varanids could have become specialized to be aquatic predators. Due to the monitors evolving to be large aquatic predators, the tegus were the only lizard to evolve into occupying the niche of medium-sized terrestrial omnivore, perhaps even filling the niche that varanids had in the Holocene.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.05.21 23:51. Заголовок: JOrnitho Yeah, I thi..


JOrnitho Yeah, I think members of the genus Halpittae are Monitor descendants, due to the fact that their ancestors are well adapted for life in the water. I believe that these alligator-monitor lizards could spread into central and even South America, although the latter is debatable, but I can see some Halpatta species adapting to saltwater habitat.
Tegus on the other hand, would remain terrestrial and diversify into several distinct species. I think many of these descendants will resemble the Rock Monitor of Africa, and have a similar lifestyle, that of a large, bulky, omnivorous lizard that will eat a variety of foods. Others will remain similar to their ancestors in lifestyle and size. Tegus take this niche IMO because they are more widespread, more adapted to colder climates and thus can spread farther north, and have a much more varied diet, thus the amount of niches they can fill are more numerous than the Nile Monitor, which while having the edge in size, speed and ability to adapt to aquatic habitats, will be restricted to subtropical zones that are primarily composed of wetlands (It should be noted that DNA testing of Nile Monitor populations in south Florida that the population of these lizards are in fact West African monitors, a distinct species more adapted to the rainforests of western and central Africa, and not the Nile Monitor proper).
So here's a revised reptile species list. This list is split into categories which will name the ancestor and the ecological niche is present after the name. Note that I'm still in the process of coming up with scientific names for all the species as well as native names, since I don't know where I can find a reliable native American language translator.

Nile Monitor
Halpatta (type species Halpatta Floridus, aquatic ambush predator): Large varanid, filling the niche of the extinct American Alligator. The type species, Halpatta Floridus, resides in Florida and the southeastern coastal plain, from east Texas to Virginia. This species has black scales with white or yellow spots that fade with age, with older individuals being almost completely black. Males average 4.5 meters and are larger than females, which are a meter shorter. The maximum size for an adult male is 5.5 meters. Individuals from the southern part of their range are larger than northern ones, with specimens from Virginia rarely reaching 4.5 meters in length, while those from Florida and Louisiana commonly exceed 5 meters. There are several other Halpatta species, which are found in the Carribean, Mexico and Central America, while one species the Carribean Halpatta (Halpatta Robustus) has colonized the Illanos in South America. These animals have streamlined bodies, webbed feet, slightly compressed tails and peg like teeth, with some species having more advanced features than the type species.
-Caribbean Halpatta (Halpatta Robustus): The largest species, reaching a maximum length of 7 meters. Males average about 5.3 meters, females about 4 meters. The skin of this animal is blueish-gray. The most pelagic species, it can be found far out at sea, but can also inhabit a variety of habitat and has colonized the Illanos of South America.
-Cuban Halpatta (Halpatta Rhombifur): A smaller species that inhabits Cuba and the Isle of Youth. It averages about 2.8 meters in length, with some exceptionally large specimens reaching 3.5 meters.
-Antiguan Halpatta (Halpatta Antillius): Inhabits Great Antigua. Length is about 2.5 meters on average, with a max length of 3.3 meters.
-Mesoamerican Halpatta (Halpatta Azteca): A mid-sized species that lives in southern Mexico. It averages about 3.5 meters in length, with some large males exceeding 5 meters.
-Panamanian Halpatta (Halpatta Panamanus): Smaller species, reaching a max length of 3.5 meters and resides in Central America.

Tegu
Seminole Dragon (Salvatore Seminoles, generalist omnivore/scavenger): The Seminole Dragon is a large terrestrial Tegu lizard native to the southeastern US and northeastern Mexico. Max length is 2.5 meters, with males bigger than females. In appearance, this lizard resembles its ancestor in coloration, the Argentine Black and White Tegu, but has a more robust frame, with a huge head, thick neck and stronger tail that does not break off when attacked. It prefers dry ground, but is a better swimmer than its ancestor. This lizard is slow moving and prefers to ambush prey rather than peruse it. Its diet consists of turtles, eggs, invertebrates, carrion, fruit and vegetation. It will use its large size to intimidate smaller predators into giving up their kills, by standing on its hind limbs and gaping with its mouth wide open.

Lace Tegu (generalist predator of smaller animals, preference for tees): Smaller than its giant cousin, this species maxes out at 1.5 meters and lives primarily in the trees and surrounding mangroves. The body is streamlined and resembles that of an Australian Lace monitor. It ranges across the coastal plain of North America. This lizard is fast moving and an excellent climber. Although omnivorous, it prefers meat over vegetation particularly when compared with its cousin, the Seminole Dragon. Its diet consists of birds, smaller lizards, snakes, mammals and fruits. Its scales are black with broad green, yellow or white bands over its body.

Iguana
Titaniguana (medium sized semi-aquatic herbivore): Descended from the invasive green iguana, this lizard is a giant compared to its ancestor, being the size of a Komodo Dragon, maxing out at 3.3 meters in length. It has several adaptations for living a semi-aquatic lifestyle: streamlined body and slightly compressed tail. The color of its body is dark green. This lizard is at home on both land and in the water, and several populations of this lizard have established themselves on the islands of Cuba and Great Antigua. Its front claws are extremely robust and longer than those of its ancestor, designed for digging up plants and ripping fruit from low lying branches. When foraging, it can briefly stand on its hind limbs to grab fruit that is off the ground. These lizards travel in small groups of 10 or more individuals. Despite its size, even adults can fall victim to big cats, Halpatta and giant pythons. It will defend itself using its whip like tail, jaws and powerful claws. This species shares a lot of convergent similarities with the Aquaguana of South America. This species was able to reach tremendous sizes due to a large population of its ancestor and low competition in South Florida.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.05.21 17:36. Заголовок: jorzek01 About the i..


jorzek01
About the idea of marsupial predator that you mentioned some time ago, I was thinking that the extinction of the black bear would leave some opportunities for this species. So I thought that this animal could be a descendant of the Virginia opossum that occupy part of the bear's niche. I think that it rather than being a bear-like animal, it could be medium sized (more or less with the size of a Tasmanian Devil) and omnivore, but with most of its diet being formed by meat. Another idea that I had for a predator that could live in Florida are descendants of the domestic cat that evolved to be similar to the ocelot, oncilla, margay and other species of the genus Leopardus. This group I think that could expand to Mexico.
I also had some ideas for birds that I'll organize before bringing there for discussion.

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