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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.04.21 21:02. Заголовок: Neocene Florida expanded


I live in the southeastern USA (North Carolina to be exact) and I have read the article on Neocene Florida. In the present, Florida has a huge problem with invasive species, such as Burmese Pythons, Nile Monitors and Green Iguanas just to name a few. Despite attempts by the state to exterminate these animals, these creatures seem to be doing quite well, even surviving cold snaps and some scientists believe these invasive species are evolving to deal with the climate of Florida (there are many articles on this, I wasn't able to link them). Since Neocene Florida will be much warmer and wetter than it is today and be covered in Mangrove swamps, I think it is within the realm of possibility that these creatures could survive the human epoch, persevere through the ice age and mass extinction and evolve into new forms that would flourish in the warmer ecosystems of Florida 25 million years in the future. Your thoughts? I'm very interested to hear what some people on this forum think about the potential possibilities that these invasive species could have if they were to survive in Neocene Florida.

Hey btw, Have new organisms, but the website won't let me reply or edit my profile, can somebody help?

But yeah here's some of my ideas:
New World Pythons: Descendants of Burmese Pythons, they are found across the Gulf of Mexico, from Georgia to Mexico and the Caribbean. This genus consists of creatures of various sizes, with the largest reaching 9 meters.

Halpatta: Descendants of the invasive Nile Monitor that have taken the niche of the now extinct American Alligator.

North American Tegus: Descendants of Tegus, which in the present have expanded deep into the Southeast USA. Due to their ability to withstand colder temperatures, they are very widespread, with many diverse forms and lifestyles.

Carp: Introduced as a big game fish, these large fishes would thrive in Neocene North America, due to the climate and abundance of food. I can definitely see some larger forms evolving in the future.

Snakeheads: Another invasive species, snakeheads are a very successful invasive species and their amphibious lifestyle would be ideal for the mangrove swamps.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.04.21 22:41. Заголовок: Hi, I'm author (..


Hi, I'm author (one of numerous authors now) of "Neocene project".
I think it is an interesting idea. If pythons will survive, they can expand along the coast of Gulf of Mexico to Central America competing to native boas. We can imagine also descendants of pythons inhabiting islands of Caribbean Sae - Cuba, Great Antigua and smaller islands.
As for other invasive species, I think pleco catfishes may prosper in southern part of North America. Hmmm, is it possible for them to conquer areas of temperate climate?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 20.04.21 12:55. Заголовок: jorzek01 Hi, I'..


jorzek01
Hi, I'm the forum's moderator. Welcome to our Neocene project!
Your idea is interesting, I agree with the Author.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 20.04.21 15:44. Заголовок: I offer to cross my ..


I offer to cross my neocene and author's version

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 24.04.21 11:03. Заголовок: jorzek01 Are you go..


jorzek01
Are you going to develop your idea any further?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.04.21 03:18. Заголовок: New World Pythons: D..


New World Pythons: Descendants of Burmese Pythons, they are found across the Gulf of Mexico, from Georgia to Mexico and the Caribbean. This genus consists of creatures of various sizes, with the largest reaching 9 meters.

North American Tegus: Descendants of Tegus, which in the present have expanded deep into the Southeast USA. Due to their ability to withstand colder temperatures, they are very widespread, with some resembling large varanids and others taking the niche filled by the now extinct American Alligator. I can even see a few adapting to marine environments and behaving in a similar way to seals.

Carp: Introduced as a big game fish, these large fishes would thrive in Neocene North America, due to the climate and abundance of food. I can definitely see some larger forms evolving in the future.

Snakeheads: Another invasive species, snakeheads are a very successful invasive species and their amphibious lifestyle would be ideal for the mangrove swamps.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.04.21 04:01. Заголовок: These are just some ..


These are just some of my ideas, I might have exaggerated the sizes a bit and some of these niches might already be filled. Also, some of these animals arent part of the Florida/Gulf Coast region, but are found elsewhere in the former eastern US. Also these animals mentioned are the larger members of their genus, I felt that listing the smaller ones would take up too much room.


Individual species:

1. Clouded Python: This is the largest species of the genus "Neopython". The largest individuals can reach 9 meters, though the average length for an adult is much smaller, with females averaging 6 meters and males 4.5 meters. The name derives from the pattern of the snake, which somewhat resembles that of the clouded leopard. Its range extends from Florida to Louisiana and coastal South Carolina to the north, all the way through the Caribbean to Cuba. Individuals from Cuba and Florida tend to be larger than other specimens, averaging seven meters in these areas. Clouded Pythons are a versatile species and are just as at home in the water as they are on land. Some snakes will swim across the Caribbean to colonize small islands, and there are numerous populations of dwarf pythons found on smaller islands.

2. Seminal Dragon: A member of a genus of North American Tegus, these lizards are similar to their ancestors and fill a niche similar to that of monitor lizards. The largest member of the genus, the Seminal Dragon, lives in Florida, Louisiana and the Cuba. The Dragon has a similar coloration to its ancestor, with the tale having prominent white bands over its black body. Males of this species can grow up to 4 meters and females 3.5 meters, making it one of the longest terrestrial lizards in the Neocene, though it is much skinnier, with the weight of a 4 meter Dragon comparable to a 3 meter Terraguana. The body is lean and streamlined, similar to that of a perentie and built for running and swimming. This fast moving creature's diet is primarily composed of meat, but will also eat fruit as well, filling a niche somewhat similar to that of small bears. In contrast, most other North American Tegus rarely reach above 2 meters.

3. Giant Carp: A large species of fish, native to the rivers of eastern North America, from New England down to Florida. Large individuals can reach lengths of 3 meters of more. This animal is an omnivore, feeding on vegetation and small animals on the river bottom. It is descended from carp introduced to the US as game fish. Coloration can vary enormously among individuals, but is typically rusty orange or dark green.

4. Mangrove Iguana: These descendants of the Green Iguana are semi-aquatic herbivores, similar to their cousins in South America. The largest specimens can approach 3 meters in length. They have a blue green color that allows them to blend into the mangrove swamps.

5. Potomac Snakehead: In the Holocene, humans introduced snakeheads into the Potomac river, which runs through the capital of the former US. These animals proliferated in this new region and established breeding populations. With no other large predators in the waters and a warmer climate, the snakehead managed to proliferate and is now one of the top predators of the rivers and lakes of the Mid-Atlantic region. The Giant Potomac snakehead is a monster fish, reaching 5 meters long.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.04.21 11:46. Заголовок: jorzek01 Good work ..


jorzek01
Good work and good species! I think we should also wait for the Author's response, OK? And thank you so much for your participation!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.04.21 18:54. Заголовок: Yeah sounds good!!..


Yeah sounds good!!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.04.21 19:59. Заголовок: I think there will b..


I think there will be a lot of cichlid species in NA (and Florida in particular) ichthyofauna. Also descendants of Gambusia affinis are possible, and some relics of early adaptation of sea-dwelling live-bearers from Caribbean Sea.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.04.21 00:01. Заголовок: I agree with that, C..


I agree with that, Cichilds have become populous in the region and could see them flourishing in Neocene Florida due to the region becoming more tropical. Another interesting species of fish from the coast are invasive lionfishes.
Some other interesting species would include descendants of cane toads, tree frogs and geckos, which have flourished since being introduced by mankind. Mongoose have also become common in the Caribbean and I can see them evolving into descent sized predators. Other species that have not been mentioned in previous pages about Florida that could also evolve and flourish in the Neocene are Minks and Opossums.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.04.21 05:02. Заголовок: Interesting. Perhaps..


Interesting. Perhaps with Florida being more tropical the Didelphis virginiana could originate a group of descendants that have a morphology similar to that of the tropical South American opossums. About the minks, since otters are extinct, would the minks have the opportunity to fill their niche in freshwater areas of North America as a specialized aquatic mammal? The minks already have some semi-aquatic habits and the project already have an aquatic mink living in litorals.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.21 04:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho you make a ..


JOrnitho you make a very good point, I did some research into the opossum family and found that a certain genus of South American Oppossum is one of the few marsupials that have adapted to a semi-aquatic lifestyle. One of it's adaptations allows the pouch to be sealed, so that water can't get inside and drown the babies. I was initially only thinking about invasive species when I started this topic, but Neocene Florida as an ecosystem could also potentially be a sort of "epicenter" of marsupial diversity in North America.
The region would be dominated by mangrove swamps, with areas of dry ground probably having foliage similar to that of Florida or the Caribbean today: pinewood forests, tall grasses, cypress and palm trees, and sandy soil. Towards the center, "oases" of clear water lakes and streams would form and provide a refuge for animals trying to escape the heat. It would be as if the Everglades expanded northward, past Florida to encompass much of the Gulf Coast region. I could see in this part marsupial predators competing with the placental berls, cats and canine descendants in this part of the continent, alongside the reptilian descendants of invasive species.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.21 12:40. Заголовок: JOrnitho jorzek01 ..


JOrnitho
jorzek01
Thanks for participation, both of you! Good ideas!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.21 16:43. Заголовок: The water opossum (C..


jorzek01, the water opossum (Chironectes minimus) is an interesting animal. The ecosystem of Florida in the Neocene would be a good place for a semi-aquatic descendant of the Didelphis virginiana to live, specially with the extinction of the otters.
I wonder if there would be terrestrial descendants of the Didelphis virginiana and which niche they would fill, perhaps some small omnivorous and predators, similar to mustelids and racoons.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.21 21:41. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: if ..


JOrnitho пишет:

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if there would be terrestrial descendants of the Didelphis virginiana and which niche they would fill


In Greenland there is Geopossum - badger-like cold-resistant omnivorous opossum.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.21 23:13. Заголовок: Yeah I was thinking ..


Yeah I was thinking of the geopossum when thinking of large generalist marsupial predators, like one that would flll a niche similar to that of a small bear.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.21 23:21. Заголовок: A tropical species o..


A tropical species of littoral mink would also makes some sense too. Florida also has a huge population of Razorbacks (wild boar), so I could see them evolving into some species of herbivores similar to those seen in Africa and Eurasia.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.04.21 03:44. Заголовок: The wild boars were ..


The wild boars were introduced in several continents. I think that these animals would leave descendants even in South America, where I think they would have a lifestyle similar to the peccaries. In Florida, according to "Neocene: the portrait of the Earth", there is already a succesful descendant of the peccary living there, it's even semi-aquatic. The Tayassuidae is well established in North America.
Even so, I think that the wild boars could survive in North America. Maybe the wild boars' descendants became small animals, with nocturnal habits. Perhaps with a behaviour similar to the modern pygmy hog (Porcula salvania) from Asia.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.04.21 04:30. Заголовок: I think the ideas we..


I think the ideas were coming up with very interesting. I would be down to collaborate or help in anyway, I think the Americas could use a few more chapters and I'd be happy to help with ideas.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.04.21 04:46. Заголовок: I would like to help..


I would like to help with chapters, too. The Americas are so vast and with several ecosystems.
By the way jorsek01, what do you think of the birds of Florida? Any species that you think could survive into the Neocene? I read that there is several introduced psittacids there

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.04.21 21:02. Заголовок: Florida has a lot of..


Florida has a lot of game birds that have been introduced, such as Pheasants. As for species, in the Neocene, Florida would most likely have a great diversity of wading birds, such as cranes or animals that have evolved to take their niche. It is also the only state with flamingos. Grebes, diving birds closely related to ducks, are fairly common today and could diversify in the Neocene.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.04.21 21:07. Заголовок: I could also see sub..


I could also see subspecies of the Plesioloon, described in the chapter Atlantic Hawaii having a niche similar to seals.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.04.21 04:04. Заголовок: I wonder if due to t..


About the flamingos, perhaps with the climate of Florida becoming more tropical, their range there would expand?
I wonder if due to the Ice Age at the boundary between the Holocene and Neocene, some migratory species would remain in Florida and other Southern regions and suffer speciation there. For exemple the Baltimore oriole (Icterus galbula) having non-migratory descendants endemic to tropical regions, where it wintered in modern times.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.04.21 21:38. Заголовок: JOrnitho Neocene Flo..


JOrnitho Neocene Florida bird fauna would definitely have species of both tropical, temperate and migratory origin, especially considering the Ice Age that preceded the era. I'm not really an expert on birds, but it would make sense for tropical species like flamingos to have a presence in the region, barring that they were able to survive the mass extinction (I believe there is a species of Flamingo in Neocene Europe). Also, there are introduced parrots in Florida today.
Also, do you have some ideas for species? I had a few more, but I'm trying to come up with smaller animals.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.04.21 22:55. Заголовок: jorzek01 I'm stu..


jorzek01 I'm studying to be an ornithologist, I would be happy to help you with ideas for birds if you need.

I was reading about introduced birds of Florida and I found out that a feral population of red-crowned amazon (Amazona viridigenalis) is growing there. In reality, not only the feral population in Florida, but one living in California too. The article says that there is 3.000 of these birds in California and together with the one in Florida, the number of these birds in the USA will surpass the number of individuals in their original habitat, Mexico. What is interesting, because this bird is considered endangered in its original habitat. So I thought that perhaps descendants of this bird survive in Florida and expand to Great Antigua and return to Mexico. Or remains as a relic species in the subtropical forests of Florida. Another idea that I had was about non-migratory descendants of the Baltimore oriole living in Florida, Mexico and perhaps Great Antigua. Their ancestor fled to Southern regions during the Ice Age, then they evolved there to adapt the tropical climate.

Other exotic animals that I think could have leaved descendants in Florida are the red-whiskered bulbul (Pycnonotus jocosus), the coypu (Myocastor coypus), the African giant land snail (Achatina fulica) and the domestic cat. There is also the plants that can leave descendants. For example, I read that in Florida the red-whiskered bulbul feed on fruits and berries of several exotic plants such as the loquat (Eriobotrya japonica), Lantana spp., Brazilian pepper (Schinus terebinthifolius) and figs (Ficus). I think that a descendant of this bird could have evolved together with these plants.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.21 06:14. Заголовок: Yeah I was actually ..


Yeah I was actually thinking about the Coypu, which have been introduced to Louisiana (which is pretty close). I could see these animals evolving into Capybara sized rodents in the future. I think Tegu lizards will diversify, as the habitat of Neocene North America would be ideal for monitor sized lizards and I've actually come up with a lot of different species of varying sizes. I also think Tegus could evolve to take the niche of the extinct alligators, caimans and crocodiles of the Neocene Americas. These Crocodile-like Tegus are called Halpattas, which is the Seminole Indian word for Alligator. I also think the Iguana has a pretty bright future as well and with the warm climate cold grow to relatively large sizes, similar to the Neocene South American Aquaguana.

Anyways, here are some of my Tegu species from North America:
 Swamp Tegu: A large sized Tegu that favors wetlands and swamps. Length on average is about 1-1.5 meters. The coloration is solid gray. This lizard has a semi-aquatic lifestyle and specializes in hunting aquatic prey, such as fish, frogs, snakes and small mammals. They will also raid nests of Halpatta, birds or pythons. Its range extends from Florida to east Texas, the southern Mississippi basin, east to southern Virginia.
 Seminole Dragon: Largest species, can reach 2.7 meters long or longer. Its range extends from Florida to southern Georgia, west to Louisiana. It is black or dark brown in color, with white spots and a white banded tale. Males have red scales around their lips. This animal lives in a variety of habitats and is an excellent swimmer. It has a build similar to an Asian Water Monitor. It is primarily a predator but will eat fruit and carrion as well.
 Broad Banded Tegu: An arboreal species native to the Gulf Coast and coastal plain, from south Jersey to east Texas. It reaches lengths of between 1-2 meters, with Florida specimens being larger. It has a black body with broad white or green bands. Some individuals have bluish bands. It is omnivorous, but prefers meet, with a taste for bird eggs.
 Green Tree Tegu: Native to Florida, its range encompasses the central and southern parts of the peninsula. This highly arboreal species is about 50 centimeters in length and is green in color. It feeds primarily on insects, eggs and small vertebrates.
 Coconut Tegu: Named for its coloration and diet, being the most herbivorous species described. It has brown scales and a white belly. It averages about 1.5 meters in length and feeds primarily on fruit, vegetation, roots and tubers, but will supplement its diet with insects and crustaceans. It prefers coastlines and wetlands. Range extends from Florida to Cuba and Louisiana.
 Plains Tegu: Native to the plains of central North America, from the southern Mississippi valley to the Mexican Plateau. It is brown in coloration. It is the second largest North American Tegu, with specimens reaching 2.5 meters. The body is streamlined and built similarly to that of a Peretine. It is omnivorous, feeding on anything it can catch.
 Broad Snout Tegu: Native to the plains and plateau. It is two meters long and has a rusty brown complexion. It has a broad snout and long tongue. It specializes in eating eggs, insects and small animals. It has strong claws, allowing it to dig up roots and small animals living underneath the surface.
 Burrowing Tegu: Small species, native to the Mid-Atlantic. Length is about 14 centimeters and scales are black or brown. Species preys on earthworms, insects and small vertebrates.
 Appalachian Tegu: Native to the Appalachian Mountains. It is about half a meter long and has black scales with white spots, which occasionally be blue. It is omnivorous and can eat almost anything.

And then I have the Halpattas (please note that these are now descendants of the Nile Monitor, not the Tegu)
2. Halpattidae: Halpattidae is a genus of Monitor descendants that have taken the niche of aquatic ambush predator, once held by crocodiles and alligators. Halpatta is the Seminole word for Alligator and these animals have many adaptations that make them similar to their present-day analogues: webbed feet, compressed tails, armored skin and peg like teeth. In Florida, two species live: The Northern Halpatta and Caribbean Halpatta.
 Northern Halpatta: Most northern species, ranging from the Chesapeake Bay to south Florida and west to Texas. Males average 4.5 meters in length and can reach up to 5.5 meters. Their skin is black in color, with faint white spots and white bands on the tail. Individuals from the southern parts of their range are larger than those in the north. This species is more cold resistant than Alligators of the Holocene, but their range is limited due to the presence of the Trapperturtle in the western part of their range.
 Caribbean Halpatta: Second largest species, slightly bigger than the Everglades species. Males average 4.7 meters and can reach 6 meters long. Its range extends from the tip of South Florida through the Caribbean Basin to central America and the north coast of South America. Its scales are blueish gray in color and its snout is more streamlined than the Everglades species. It is the most pelagic species, and individuals can be found far out at sea.
 Cuban Halpatta: Native to the freshwater lakes and rivers of Cuba. Its scales are dark brown with a green or blue tinge. Body is about 3.5 meters long, with large males occasionally reaching 4 meters.
 Antiguan Halpatta: Smaller than its Cuban relative, rarely reaching over 3.5 meters. It has a lighter complexion than its relative in Cuba.
 Mesoamerican Halpatta: Native to southern Mexico, this species is medium sized, about 4 meters long and lives in rainforests. It is light brown or green in color.
 Panamanian Halpatta: Lives in Central America and is one of the smaller species. It has a green-brown body with a white belly. Some males have an orange or red tinge to their skin. Length is about 2.5 meters.
Halpattas are very similar to the Aquavaranids of Asia and Africa. The typical Halpatta looks something of a cross between a monitor, alligator and mosasaur. Some species have broad snouts and powerful jaws designed for crushing prey, such as turtles, while others have elongated "mosasaur" type snouts better adapted for catching fish or marine reptiles, mammals and birds. They all have extremely robust necks. Halpattas are descendants of invasive Nile Monitors in North America and first appeared in Florida during the early Neocene, subsequently spreading south into South America via the Caribbean Sea and Antiguan land bridge. In many parts of their range, Halpattas compete with large fish and giant turtles for the position of top predator.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.21 18:35. Заголовок: jorzek01 пишет: I t..


jorzek01 пишет:

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I think Tegu lizards will diversify, as the habitat of Neocene North America would be ideal for monitor sized lizards and I've actually come up with a lot of different species of varying sizes.


Don't forget other genera of lizards. Anoles, for example, seem to be very ecologically and evolutionally flexible reptiles.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.05.21 22:52. Заголовок: jorzek01 пишет: som..


jorzek01 пишет:

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some of my Tegu species from North America


What about a survival of invasive Nile monitor? If these reptiles will survive and evolve, they will compete to tegus.
You show us a whole range of evolutional possibilities reached by tegu descendants. IMHO, this situation is possible only in one case - when tegus have no competitors. In this case a disruptive natural selection takes place, and instead of the only ancestral species we have a spectrum of its descendants each of them having its own special adaptations for survival.
When we have other players, we must take them into account and talk about possible evolution of one species or another in terms of the most probable direcion of evolution in conditions of competing to species of another taxonomical group. So, first of all, we must define the set of initial species to evolve. Then we must define the most probable general directions of their evolution ("branches"), and only after that we can think about the particular species inside these "branches" in order to fill possible ecological niches to avoid competition between them.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.21 18:08. Заголовок: jorzek01 you asked i..


jorzek01 you asked if I have some ideas for the fauna of Florida , so I had these:

Red-headed parrot: a descendant of the feral populations of red-crowned amazon (Amazona viridigenalis) living in the United States. This bird have 30 cm of lenght from the beak to the tip of the tail feathers. Its wingspan is of 40 cm. The main characteristic of this species in the bright red plumage of their heads. The rest of its plumage is green, with yellow-tipped tails. The red-crowned parrot inhabits the subtropical forests of North America, from the Florida Peninsula to Texas. Some populations of this bird lives in some Caribean Islands.
Purple-faced parrot: another descendant of the feral populations of red-crowned amazon (Amazona viridigenalis) living in the United States. This bird lives in forests and woodlands of Northeastern Mexico. The main characteristic of this species is the bright plumage of its face. Most of body's plumage is green, with yellow-tipped tails. This psittacid also have red plumage in the forehead and crest. This bird have 36 cm of lenght from the beak to the tip of the tail feathers. Its wingspan is of 45 cm.
Antiguan parrot: another descendant of the feral populations of red-crowned amazon (Amazona viridigenalis) living in the United States. Its ancestor reached Great Antigua's lowland tropical forests. This bird have 25 cm of lenght from the beak to the tip of the tail feather. Its wingspan is of 36 cm. The plumage of the body of this species is green, with a yellow tail and red in its forehead and crest.

Another idea:
American golden oriole: this species is a descendant of the Baltimore oriole (Icterus galbula). It became a non-migratory species living in the subtropical forests of North America, from the Florida peninsula to Texas. It have 23 cm of lenght and 30 cm of wingspan, with nales being slightly large than females. This species have sexual dimorphism, with males being bright yellow apart from a black head, back, wings and tail. The females are yellow-brown on the upper parts with darker wings, and dull yellow on the breast and belly.
Black-throated oriole: another descendant of the Baltimore oriole (Icterus galbula). This species lives in the lowland forests of Great Antigua. The male is bright yellow apart from black in the face, throat, wings and tail. The females are yellow-brown on the upper parts with darker wings, and dull yellow on the breast and belly. This species have 20 cm of lenght and 28 cm of wingspan. The males are slightly large than females.
Masked oriole: another descendant of the Baltimore oriole (Icterus galbula). This species lives in the woodlands and forests of North eastern Mexico. The male is bright yellowish orange apart from black plumage around the eyes, wings and tail. The females are yellow-brown on the upper parts with darker wings, and dull orange on the breast and belly. This species have 24 cm of lenght and 32 cm of wingspan. The males are slightly large than females.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.05.21 23:18. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: red..


JOrnitho пишет:

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red-crowned amazon (Amazona viridigenalis)


Are you sure this large parrot is able to survive in the future? I think any smaller parrot/parakeet species is a more probable candidate to fill this niche.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.05.21 19:40. Заголовок: Автор I had actually..


Автор I had actually thought about the Nile Monitor before writing my Tegu idea. I came to the conclusion that, since Tegus are more widespread in NA and are partially endothermic, they were more likely to survive than the Nile Monitor, but I never fully counted out the monitors either, I just couldn't really figure out which species would fill which niche. Tegus have spread farther north, being reported in Georgia and South Carolina, while the monitors are only found in southern Florida (though their population is growing). However, now thinking about it, I could see that the Halpattas would be monitor descendants, since the Nile Monitor is much more adapted to semi-aquatic habitats than the Tegu is. It would be very interesting to see how these two creatures evolve, since they are very similar animals that fill similar niches.
Another reason why I picked Tegus was that they are among the only reptiles, alongside some python species, that can briefly become warm blooded (source:https://science.sciencemag.org/content/151/3711/694,), which occurs during the mating season. I think that both species (pythons and tegus), due to their partial endothermy, would have a better chance of surviving the ice age and could then expand their ranges farther. Then again, this is Florida we are talking about, so Monitors have a great chance of survival due to the climate. Tegus and monitors are both very intelligent, with some reptile owners claiming that their Tegus can be housebroken like dogs can (some owners even take them on walks).
Another thing about endothermy that I wanted to mention is how it evolves. I know this doesn't have much to do with the topic, but some researchers believe that warm bloodedness originally evolved as a mating device, since it would allow animals to become more active and thus more likely to find a mate. Now I'm not saying that Tegus and Pythons will evolve into fully warm blooded creatures like mammals and birds, but the selective pressures of the ice age would naturally favor a partial endotherm over a fully cold blooded animal. Tegus could possibly spread farther north and adapt to more niches in the Americas. But then again, this is just speculation. Ironically, my original idea was that most of these species would be Monitor descendants before I read about the traits possessed by Tegus.
Anyhow, I will definitely keep working on this species idea, maybe first by coming up with ancestral "missing link species" from the Ice Age and narrowing down the possibilities from there. I would assume Florida's climate in the Ice Age would be similar to that of Pleistocene Florida, being cooler and drier than today. Also, putting aside which species came from where, do you personally think that the diversification of large predatory lizards in the Americas is a good idea? What do you think I should change to in order to improve these species?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.05.21 02:37. Заголовок: Автор пишет: Are y..


Автор пишет:

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Are you sure this large parrot is able to survive in the future?

Well this species have a large feral population in the United States and is growing, while the populations in its original habitat in declining. However, most of this population (aprox. 3.000) lives in California.
Yes, now thinking about that I see that for the birds that I suggested a smaller species as ancestor would make more sense. So my ideas for the possible ancestors of these parrots:
1-The nanday parakeet (Aratinga nenday), which from what I read have feral populations in California, Texas and Florida.
2-These birds are the result of inter-specific hybridization between the red masked parakeet (Psittacara erythrogenys) and the mitred parakeet (Psittacara mitratus) . These two were part of the genus Aratinga, until being separated in the new genus Psittacara in 2013.
3-The monk parakeets (Myiopsitta monachus). This species is well established in some regions of the USA, including Florida. It also have the advantage of building its own nest. So its descendants would be birds that fill the niche of large parrots, but are able to build their own nests. Perhaps these parrots no longer nest in large colonies, but each pair build a smaller structure to be their nest, rather than the large "apartment" of their ancestors.

Which one of these birds seems the most plausible ancestor?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.05.21 20:20. Заголовок: JOrnitho Hey I reall..


JOrnitho Hey I really like the ideas! If I had to say which would be the ancestor of your Parrot species, I would guess the Monk Parakeet. This species seems to be the most established in the region and colonies can be found as far north as New York or Wisconsin, with over 150,000-500,000 in Florida alone. I think that due to its range and adaptability it would have the greatest chance of survival, although all of the species mentioned are pretty adaptable and have the potential for survival. I also think building its own nest would give the bird an advantage, allowing it to choose a safer area rather than relying on existing structures.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 05.05.21 02:49. Заголовок: jorzek01 Yes, I thin..


jorzek01 Yes, I think that the monk parakeet would be a better ancestor. Since this species can build nests, there would not have a competition for hollowed trees between its descendants and the other species of psittacid of Neocene North America.
Along these species that I already suggested, I think that there could be a species with more colonial habit of nesting living in the Mexican plateau. These birds would fill the niche of large parrots in these regions.
I don't know if these birds would have representants in regions of more temperate wheater.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 06.05.21 03:10. Заголовок: JOrnitho It's de..


JOrnitho It's definitely possible for these birds to spread to temperate regions. The monk parakeet has managed to form colonies in the northern and northeastern US, in addition to many different areas via introductions. These areas include "several U.S. states and various regions of Europe (namely Spain, Portugal, Azores, Madeira, Balearic Islands, Gibraltar, France, Corsica, Malta, Cyprus, Sardinia, Italy, Greece, Channel Islands, Great Britain, Ireland, and Belgium), as well as in British Columbia, Canada,[15] Brazil, Mexico, Chile, Israel, Bermuda, Bahamas, the United States, Cayman Islands, Puerto Rico, Easter Island, South Korea, Singapore[16] and Japan. " Its native range includes temperate and sub-tropical open woodlands and it is thriving there as well, with the population exploding in Argentina, Uruguay and southern Brazil.
I think another interesting species you should look into is the Rose-ringed Parakeet. This species has also thrived in recent decades and can survive the cold winters of northern Europe. Its native to Africa and west Asia, but has established feral populations across Europe, Asia, North America and even Australia.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 06.05.21 20:32. Заголовок: jorzek01 I was think..


jorzek01 I was thinking that these descendants of the Monk parakeet would be limited to regions where they are able to fill the niche of large parrots and not directly compete with the already existing North American psittacids of the Neocene, which are descendants of the Aratinga (Neoaratinga and close related species). So I think that the monk parakeet's descendants would be more common in Tropical regions, reaching the Caribean Islands, Mexico and the tropical forests South from it. I think that some species could live in California and some temperate areas, but would be rare.
About the Rose-ringed parakeet, the Neocene have two descendants of it ( in reality the result of inter-specific hybridization between this species and the alexandrine parakeet) living in Europe. These two birds migrate to Africa and to the Persian Ridge during the winter. These birds are the roseate parakeet and the red-sided parakeet.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.05.21 22:43. Заголовок: What do you think ab..


What do you think about the possibility of the evolution of large macaw-like parakeets in island habitats of Caribbean Sea including Cuba and Great Antigua?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.05.21 02:36. Заголовок: Автор пишет: What d..


Автор пишет:

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What do you think about the possibility of the evolution of large macaw-like parakeets in island habitats of Caribbean Sea including Cuba and Great Antigua?

I think that it can be possible. There is some species of Psittacids that are resilient, being able to survive even in cities. For example, in Rio de Janeiro and nearby cities is possible to see parakeets from the genus Pyrrhura, Aratinga, Diopsittaca, Brotogeris, Myiopsitta, Forpus and more rarely Amazona parrots (Amazona aestiva). I live in São Gonçalo, which is close to the city of Rio de Janeiro, and everyday I see a flock of psittacids (probably Diopsittaca or Aratinga) flying in the evening. In cities, some of these psittacids will use human structures to build nests.
So I think that these species that are more resilient could survive and spread to the Caribean Islands, evolving to macaw-like birds. I think that similar macaw-like birds could also appear in South America, being descendants of the same resilient species. These species could replace the niche of large macaws and parrots by eating hard seeds and nuts.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.05.21 16:30. Заголовок: If we propose a way ..


If we propose a way of expanding of terrestrial mammals and reptiles via Caribbean island bridge, we may imagine a chain of related forms stretching from South America to Florida and Gulf of Mexico coast to Yucatan peninsula. Island forms show a high degree of endemism, while continental forms are widespread. For Cuba and Great Antigua we may propose an existance of two ecologically differing forms related to each other - lowland rainforest-dwelling one and highland dry forest dweller. Of course, these pairs wil be different for these two islands. For continental forms we may propose a feeding specialization also: in the same forest area some species may exist side-by-side, consuming different food sources - soft fruits, small dry seeds, large hard nuts - and a generalist near them.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.05.21 21:15. Заголовок: Автор Perhaps a simi..


Автор Perhaps a similar process could happen with the Caribean pseudo-macaws? The ancestor could have evolved in South America to fill the niche leaved by the extinction of Ara and Anodorhynchus. Some of these descendants would reach Mexico and Florida before the Panama Isthmus was destroyed and from there they would enter the Caribean Islands. In this path, they would leave behind descendants in these regions.
For their feeding specialization, I think that the large species with more strong beaks would feed of hard nuts, palm fruits and coconuts, which is what happens with the large Anodorhynchus macaws. A medium sized and more generalist could have a diet similar to the birds of the genus Ara, eating soft fruits and nuts. While the ones that eat small seeds and fruits could fill the niche of the so called "mini-macaws" of the genus Orthopsittaca and Diopsittaca.
This division give me the idea that perhaps we have two genera of macaw-like birds coming from the same ancestor. One formed by the large and medium sized macaws and other formed by small macaws.
I think that the species in the Caribean Island would be smaller than their continental counterparts, like how the now extinct Cuba red macaw was one of smallest species of the genus Ara.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.05.21 23:31. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

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The ancestor could have evolved in South America to fill the niche leaved by the extinction of Ara and Anodorhynchus.


So, it may form some genera because of two ways of settling to North America:
1) via Panama land bridge - the descendant of early radiation of proto-pseudo-macaws. It will be represented by relic rather primitive genus in Central America (Yucatan);
2) via Antillean bridge - descendants of radiation of more advanced forms from South America reached North America and settled in Florida and along Gulf of Mexico coast to the south to meet a relic species mentioned above.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 08:28. Заголовок: Автор So I've th..


Автор So I've thought about the lizard species and decided that the aquatic lizards would be varanids, while there would be a fair amount of diversity amongst descendants of iguanas. Tegus would remain mid-sized omnivores. As for others, I think that Anole diversity would be high.
There are two Anole species in Florida today: the native green anole and the invasive brown anole. Despite competition from the newcomers, the Green Anoles still thrive and have changed their lifestyle by adopting a more arboreal lifestyle, while the invasive browns are still terrestrial. So it would be safe to assume that descendants of the brown anole would be more terrestrial and the green anole descendants would be adapted to the trees.
Also, due to the climate and landscape of Florida, I think a lot of lizard (and animals in general) species would adapt a semi-aquatic lifestyle, which would make it easier for a few of them to colonize the islands and potentially even South America. I could see semi-aquatic descendants of the green iguana populating not only Florida but also Cuba and Great Antigua. Aquatic Varanids could also become widespread in the region: the Nile Monitor is already very well adapted to life in Mangrove Swamps. And given the existence of a land bridge that existed before the Neocene connecting North and South America, it would be hard to believe "Floridian" fauna in South America, such as Varanids or possibly some Python species.
So the Halpattas (New World aquatic varanids) would be found in the Southeast US, eastern and southern Mexico, central America, the Caribbean and south America. These animals evolved from the Nile monitors and have taken the niche from the extinct crocodilians in the Caribbean Basin.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 16:49. Заголовок: Автор I like the ide..


Автор I like the idea of a primitive pseudo-macaw living in Yucatan Peninsula. About the species in Florida, I think that these birds could have more generalist feeding habits, this way not competing with other psittacids there. Also I think that the diversity of this group would be in South America and the center of their distribution could be the Amazon rainforest, with the ancestral bird first appearing there and spreading for other locations.
Who could be the ancestor of this group: Aratinga or Pyrrhura? Some representatives of these groups are resilient and can live in cities.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 18:24. Заголовок: JOrnitho But why it..


JOrnitho
But why it will be pseudo - ara. Aras can penetrate on the Great Antigua by islands from South America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 21:48. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Yes, but..


Фельдфебель
Yes, but I don't think that the true members of the genus Ara would survive into the Neocene due to the human actions and destruction of their habitats. So the birds that fill its niche will probably be descendants of small and more resilient species of psittacid (for example Aratinga and Pyrrhura). This is why these birds would be some sort of pseudo-macaws.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 22:52. Заголовок: JOrnitho When they s..


JOrnitho When they scolded Deinoara, which was created by Мамонт, there was no such item. Just look:

 цитата:
Кубинский дейноара - не принимается, переход к открытому гнездованию и выводковому развитию у попугаев выглядит маловероятным, плюс на Кубе возможно наличие наземных хищников, поскольку это часть Антильского моста.


what will be translated as:s
Cuban deinoara - not accepted, the transition to open nesting and brood development in parrots looks unlikely, plus there may be land predators in Cuba, since this is part of the Antilles bridge.
In addition, there are parrots with this name, only in...Madagascar.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 12:02. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Wow, gr..


Фельдфебель
Wow, great English! Oh, sorry for the offtop...

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.05.21 23:41. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Well I o..


Фельдфебель
Well I only refering to this bird as a pseudo-macaw because Автор regarded them as large macaw-like parakeets. You can see there:
пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think about the possibility of the evolution of large macaw-like parakeets in island habitats of Caribbean Sea including Cuba and Great Antigua?


I also understood by it that these birds would be descendants of some species of parakeet (this is why I suggested Aratinga or Pyrrhura)
And this isn't the species name. The pseudo-macaw is a provisory name for these large macaw-like parakeets. A possible name for it could be Neoara, the new Ara. Or if a regional name is alowed, I can find some Brazilian or Guarani potential names for this genus.
About the survival of Ara, well if the Author agrees with them surviving, then I suppose that they could be the ancestors of these birds. However, many species of macaw (from both Genus Ara and Anodorhynchus) are threatened by habitat loss and hunting to be turned into ilegal pets. These birds also rarely nest in cities (at least in Brazil) so I don't know if they would be suited to survive into the Neocene due the human pressure.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 13:41. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: wel..


JOrnitho пишет:

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well if the Author agrees with them surviving


I mean the possibility of small parakeets to evolve to large macaw-like birds, not the survival of present-day macaws themselves.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 15:03. Заголовок: Автор Yes, it was wh..


Автор
Yes, it was what I understood when you asked about the existence of these large macaw like birds. I think that two genus that could be candidates for the ancestors of these birds are Aratinga or Pyrrhura, due to some of the species being resilient and surviving in urban areas.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 15:38. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: two..


JOrnitho пишет:

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two genus that could be candidates for the ancestors of these birds are Aratinga or Pyrrhura


As for the names of future genera of the animals and plants included to the project, we try to use any words from local languages within the ranges of the species in focus. The choice of the name is sometimes a really difficult task. In Russian part of the forum we even have a special thread - "Names of nonborn species", where we accumulate links to vocabularies of various folks of the world to choose a good name for our new inhabitant of the Neocene world.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 16:47. Заголовок: Автор I think that I..


Автор
I think that I can make a list of Brazilian/regional names and adjectives that can be used for species of the Neocene. For example, for the large macaw-like parakeet that can live in South America, there is these names:
Maracanã/Maracanan
Araguaí
Araguari
Araguasu
Aruaí
Tiriba
Jandaia
Maitaca
Curica
Aramitã/Aramitan

Most of these names are used as regional names for species of psittacids in Brazil, except Aramitã (new ara), which I created by joining Ara with mitã, Guarani word for new. These words have roots in the Guarani language.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 19:49. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Mar..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Maracanã/Maracanan
Araguaí
Araguari
Araguasu
Aruaí
Tiriba
Jandaia
Maitaca
Curica
Aramitã/Aramitan


Oh, it's cool. Beru k sebe.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 18:50. Заголовок: Автор But why aras ..


Автор
But why aras will not survive?
For example, the scarlet macaw is LC (least concern).
But in Neocene are descendants of the saiga, which is CR.
JOrnitho
I have just seen a TV news story about urban macaw parrots, which "Bring joy to the gloomy Caracas".

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.05.21 21:31. Заголовок: Фельдфебель Yes, som..


Фельдфебель
Yes, sometimes macaws will breed in cities, but it isn't common. Meanwhile small parakeets are more widespread, have large flocks in urban centers, some can use buildings to nest and have a more generalist diet. The large macaws (Ara and Anodorynchus) are more succeptible to the human impacts. They need large trees to nest, more food and are more sought by the wild animal trafficking.
But lets say that the Ara survive and leaves a descendant. In my opinion its descendants could be less widespread, perhaps restrict to the Amazon rainforest in South America, while the macaw-like parakeets suggested by Автор could be more widespread. This way we have a similar situation in Neocene with what happens nowadays between the Anodorhynchus macaws, more restrict to some areas and with only two living species, and the Ara macaws, more widespread.
So the Ara's descendants would be restrict to a certain region (perhaps even as a relict taxon), while the macaw-like parakeets became more succesful and spread from South America to Florida.
jorzek01
I was reading an article about the invasive species in Florida. There it said that green iguanas can sometimes eat snails, so I thought that perhaps one of the descendants this animal could evolve as a predator of a possible descendants of the African giant snail.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.05.21 19:31. Заголовок: Фельдфебель пишет: ..


Фельдфебель пишет:

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But in Neocene are descendants of the saiga, which is CR.


Saiga proved its ability to restore the population from almost extinct in 1920-th to 2 millions in the middle of XX century. That's why I assumed an existance of saiga descendant in Neocene. Now it is not CR, but VU.

Фельдфебель пишет:

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Cuban deinoara - not accepted, the transition to open nesting and brood development in parrots looks unlikely, plus there may be land predators in Cuba, since this is part of the Antilles bridge.


It's not exact translation - I mean not "brood development", but "precocial development", like at geese and galliforms.

JOrnitho пишет:

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green iguanas can sometimes eat snails, so I thought that perhaps one of the descendants this animal could evolve as a predator of a possible descendants of the African giant snail.


Maybe, tegu descendant seems to fit better to such role.
Talking about reptiles of future Florida, it's better (IMHO) to make a list of possible ecological roles of reptiles in ecosystems, and then to think about reptiles that can fill these niches more successfully.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.05.21 06:42. Заголовок: -Igauana: Remain her..


-Igauana: Remain herbivores. They are already quite successful in Florida, being found pretty much anywhere. I can see several specialized species arising, with some being arboreal, others semi-aquatic and others terrestrial. I agree that Tegus are better suited for eating giant snails, Iguanas are already successful herbivores and I doubt any would switch to carnivory, especially with Tegus and Nile Monitors around.
-Nile Monitor: I see them taking the niche of the Alligator and expanding southward into the Caribbean. Nile Monitors thrive in semi-aquatic habitats and it would be a logical jump for them to become crocodile-like predators in the future. In fact, in Florida, there favorite habitat is near canals and bodies of water. My idea for this animal is the Halpatta, which in the Seminole language means "alligator" and was the name of one of the tribes most famous chieftains.
-Tegus: Tegus are generalist omnivores with a relatively high cold tolerance. I see them taking traditional generalist type niches, with many specialized forms, and could see them expanding farther northward than the other two large lizard species, as Tegu populations have already been established in the states of Georgia and South Carolina in addition to Florida.


Ecological roles

Aquatic ambush predator: With crocodilians extinct, someone will have to take this role. Alligator snapping turtles are not native to Florida, while the Nile Monitor is already established. Given the facts above, I think this reptile can take this niche.

Small to medium sized herbivores: Iguanas are already one of the regions most successful herbivores, and while they probably will not be able to reach the status of large herbivore, I can see some descendants reaching bigger sizes than their ancestors. Think the Neocene Aquaguana of South America. Others might adapt to life in the trees. In tropical South America, Iguana thrive and Neocene Florida's climate will be absolutely ideal for them and there will be less competition. Introduced Burmese Pythons are already exterminating many of the smaller mammalian herbivores, leaving much of this niche open.

Generalist hunters: Opossums and racoons already fill this niche, but Tegus are still expanding into regions that these animals inhabit. Tegus are very adaptable and will eat just about anything.
And as stated in above, invasive Burmese Pythons have decimated populations of small mammals in south Florida. While this niche will have the most competition, monitor lizards and Tegus share their native habitats with generalist mammalian hunters, so its not a big leap of faith to think that descendants of Tegus and Monitors could take some of these niches. Maybe we could see a form of niche partitioning, with the large lizards specializing in one kind of food source or being active at a different time than their mammalian counterparts.

Then finally, Pythons. In Florida and the surrounding Gulf Coast, there are no large constrictors. Burmese Pythons have absolutely dominated the ecosystem since arriving in Florida in the 80s and i have little doubt they will continue to do the same if they survive into the Neocene, which I think is a very good chance. Also, native boas of North America (with the partial exception of the Boa Constrictor) are specialized and not as large on average. They are primarily arboreal. Thus, I think Burmese Pythons, if they did expand south, could evolve into even larger, terrestrial or semi-aquatic forms in the Caribbean and central America, although in the latter region they would have to compete with the Boa Constrictor. Even then however, the Burmese Python shares much of its native range in southeast Asia with the similarly sized Reticulated Python.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.05.21 16:36. Заголовок: jorzek01 Perhaps we ..


jorzek01
Perhaps we could have the monitor lizards evolving only in the Halpatta. With the extinction of the aligators, the varanids could have become specialized to be aquatic predators. Due to the monitors evolving to be large aquatic predators, the tegus were the only lizard to evolve into occupying the niche of medium-sized terrestrial omnivore, perhaps even filling the niche that varanids had in the Holocene.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.05.21 23:51. Заголовок: JOrnitho Yeah, I thi..


JOrnitho Yeah, I think members of the genus Halpittae are Monitor descendants, due to the fact that their ancestors are well adapted for life in the water. I believe that these alligator-monitor lizards could spread into central and even South America, although the latter is debatable, but I can see some Halpatta species adapting to saltwater habitat.
Tegus on the other hand, would remain terrestrial and diversify into several distinct species. I think many of these descendants will resemble the Rock Monitor of Africa, and have a similar lifestyle, that of a large, bulky, omnivorous lizard that will eat a variety of foods. Others will remain similar to their ancestors in lifestyle and size. Tegus take this niche IMO because they are more widespread, more adapted to colder climates and thus can spread farther north, and have a much more varied diet, thus the amount of niches they can fill are more numerous than the Nile Monitor, which while having the edge in size, speed and ability to adapt to aquatic habitats, will be restricted to subtropical zones that are primarily composed of wetlands (It should be noted that DNA testing of Nile Monitor populations in south Florida that the population of these lizards are in fact West African monitors, a distinct species more adapted to the rainforests of western and central Africa, and not the Nile Monitor proper).
So here's a revised reptile species list. This list is split into categories which will name the ancestor and the ecological niche is present after the name. Note that I'm still in the process of coming up with scientific names for all the species as well as native names, since I don't know where I can find a reliable native American language translator.

Nile Monitor
Halpatta (type species Halpatta Floridus, aquatic ambush predator): Large varanid, filling the niche of the extinct American Alligator. The type species, Halpatta Floridus, resides in Florida and the southeastern coastal plain, from east Texas to Virginia. This species has black scales with white or yellow spots that fade with age, with older individuals being almost completely black. Males average 4.5 meters and are larger than females, which are a meter shorter. The maximum size for an adult male is 5.5 meters. Individuals from the southern part of their range are larger than northern ones, with specimens from Virginia rarely reaching 4.5 meters in length, while those from Florida and Louisiana commonly exceed 5 meters. There are several other Halpatta species, which are found in the Carribean, Mexico and Central America, while one species the Carribean Halpatta (Halpatta Robustus) has colonized the Illanos in South America. These animals have streamlined bodies, webbed feet, slightly compressed tails and peg like teeth, with some species having more advanced features than the type species.
-Caribbean Halpatta (Halpatta Robustus): The largest species, reaching a maximum length of 7 meters. Males average about 5.3 meters, females about 4 meters. The skin of this animal is blueish-gray. The most pelagic species, it can be found far out at sea, but can also inhabit a variety of habitat and has colonized the Illanos of South America.
-Cuban Halpatta (Halpatta Rhombifur): A smaller species that inhabits Cuba and the Isle of Youth. It averages about 2.8 meters in length, with some exceptionally large specimens reaching 3.5 meters.
-Antiguan Halpatta (Halpatta Antillius): Inhabits Great Antigua. Length is about 2.5 meters on average, with a max length of 3.3 meters.
-Mesoamerican Halpatta (Halpatta Azteca): A mid-sized species that lives in southern Mexico. It averages about 3.5 meters in length, with some large males exceeding 5 meters.
-Panamanian Halpatta (Halpatta Panamanus): Smaller species, reaching a max length of 3.5 meters and resides in Central America.

Tegu
Seminole Dragon (Salvatore Seminoles, generalist omnivore/scavenger): The Seminole Dragon is a large terrestrial Tegu lizard native to the southeastern US and northeastern Mexico. Max length is 2.5 meters, with males bigger than females. In appearance, this lizard resembles its ancestor in coloration, the Argentine Black and White Tegu, but has a more robust frame, with a huge head, thick neck and stronger tail that does not break off when attacked. It prefers dry ground, but is a better swimmer than its ancestor. This lizard is slow moving and prefers to ambush prey rather than peruse it. Its diet consists of turtles, eggs, invertebrates, carrion, fruit and vegetation. It will use its large size to intimidate smaller predators into giving up their kills, by standing on its hind limbs and gaping with its mouth wide open.

Lace Tegu (generalist predator of smaller animals, preference for tees): Smaller than its giant cousin, this species maxes out at 1.5 meters and lives primarily in the trees and surrounding mangroves. The body is streamlined and resembles that of an Australian Lace monitor. It ranges across the coastal plain of North America. This lizard is fast moving and an excellent climber. Although omnivorous, it prefers meat over vegetation particularly when compared with its cousin, the Seminole Dragon. Its diet consists of birds, smaller lizards, snakes, mammals and fruits. Its scales are black with broad green, yellow or white bands over its body.

Iguana
Titaniguana (medium sized semi-aquatic herbivore): Descended from the invasive green iguana, this lizard is a giant compared to its ancestor, being the size of a Komodo Dragon, maxing out at 3.3 meters in length. It has several adaptations for living a semi-aquatic lifestyle: streamlined body and slightly compressed tail. The color of its body is dark green. This lizard is at home on both land and in the water, and several populations of this lizard have established themselves on the islands of Cuba and Great Antigua. Its front claws are extremely robust and longer than those of its ancestor, designed for digging up plants and ripping fruit from low lying branches. When foraging, it can briefly stand on its hind limbs to grab fruit that is off the ground. These lizards travel in small groups of 10 or more individuals. Despite its size, even adults can fall victim to big cats, Halpatta and giant pythons. It will defend itself using its whip like tail, jaws and powerful claws. This species shares a lot of convergent similarities with the Aquaguana of South America. This species was able to reach tremendous sizes due to a large population of its ancestor and low competition in South Florida.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.05.21 17:36. Заголовок: jorzek01 About the i..


jorzek01
About the idea of marsupial predator that you mentioned some time ago, I was thinking that the extinction of the black bear would leave some opportunities for this species. So I thought that this animal could be a descendant of the Virginia opossum that occupy part of the bear's niche. I think that it rather than being a bear-like animal, it could be medium sized (more or less with the size of a Tasmanian Devil) and omnivore, but with most of its diet being formed by meat. Another idea that I had for a predator that could live in Florida are descendants of the domestic cat that evolved to be similar to the ocelot, oncilla, margay and other species of the genus Leopardus. This group I think that could expand to Mexico.
I also had some ideas for birds that I'll organize before bringing there for discussion.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.05.21 19:33. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I w..


JOrnitho пишет:

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I was thinking that the extinction of the black bear would leave some opportunities for this species.


We still have skunks and badgers, so don't forget it.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.05.21 21:26. Заголовок: Автор пишет: We sti..


Автор пишет:

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We still have skunks and badgers, so don't forget it.


That is true. Now thinking about that, would be plausible if the american badger (Taxidea taxus) leave a bear-like descendant in the Southern areas of North America? I think that if it's possible, this animal could be smaller than modern day bears.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.05.21 22:21. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: a b..


JOrnitho пишет:

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a bear-like descendant in the Southern areas of North America?


The description of this animal had been added today! It is Taxideima gigantea from Great Plains. The description exists in Russian version only. I hope online translators can help you in reading of this description.

Tomorrow I will go to Moscow until the end of May.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.05.21 23:10. Заголовок: Автор That answer my..


Автор
That answer my question Hahahaha. I wish you a good and safe trip!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 17.05.21 07:47. Заголовок: JOrnitho I was think..


JOrnitho I was thinking about marsupials in NA and I came up with an interesting idea. Virginia Opossums are somewhat resistant to snake venom. Given that these species are ecologically plastic and could fill a variety of potential niches, I think it could be possible for one to emerge that specializes in killing and eating snakes, similar to the extant mongoose. The only problem I see with this idea is that mongoose are an invasive species in Cuba and could potentially cross a land bridge to NA in the ages before the Neocene.
I have come up with several new species, but want to list them in another thread since not all of them are from North America, so briefly here are two of my ideas:

1. The Falx Toothed Cat (Rhomphaiadon Verdugo): A large felid, with 9 cm canines and a mouth full of serrated teeth that specializes in hunting large herbivores. It is convergently similar to the Scimitar toothed cats of the Pleistocene, such as Xenosmilus and Homotherium. It inhabits the forest belt of eastern North America.

2. Marsupial Snake Eaters (Herpedelphis Laurentius): A group of specialized snake and reptile hunters descended from the Virginia Oppossum that inhabits north America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 18.05.21 16:12. Заголовок: jorzek01 The idea of..


jorzek01
The idea of the marsupial snake eater is interesting. If the mongooses from Cuba would displace these animals from Florida, perhaps these marsupials could have spread to Mexico and is now living there.
I had an idea for descendants of the pileated woodpecker (Dryocopus pileatus). These birds would be large and would have a species living from Florida to Nishe-Nama lake, another living on Mexico and other in Great Antigua.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.05.21 05:27. Заголовок: Marsupial Snake Eate..


Marsupial Snake Eaters (Herpedelphis): In the Neocene, the climate is much warmer than today and coupled with the extinction of many mammalian species, has led to the rise of several other groups. In particular, rodents have become extremely successful and this combined with the warmer climate has led to an explosion in number and diversity of pit-viper species, one of their main predators (alongside other predators of rodents). With their venom, most predators avoid American pit-vipers, such as Rattlesnakes. Nevertheless, many species have adapted to this. Mongoose are the most well known snake specialists, but they are absent from most of the New World, aside from Cuba. In addition, venomous snakes from the New World are pit-vipers, with elapids being only represented by the smaller, fossorial coral snakes. The mongoose is more adapted to the venom of old world snakes, such as cobras, and would not have the same type of resistance to the venoms of New World species, such as Rattlesnakes.
But this has not stopped the forces of convergent evolution. In North America, opossums, are extremely resistant to the venom of New World pit vipers. Coupled with an abundance of food, some of these marsupials have branched off into their own new genus, Herpedelphis, Marsupial Snake Eaters.
In appearance, the Marsupial Snake Eaters resemble their ancestors, with several key adaptations. They are more slender and gracile, with quicker reflexes to dodge snake bites. Most species are far less bulky than their ancestor, with some exceptions (the largest species is about the size of a Badger, while most are Mongoose sized). They are quite agile and capable at running at a decent speed to avoid predators. The tail is still hairless, but the fur on the animal's hide is much thicker, able to absorb blows from the long fangs of pit-vipers. The coloration varies by region, with most being uniform brown, beige or black. A few retain the white heads of their ancestors.
These marsupials will attempt to kill their prey by wearing it down from exhaustion before going for the neck to instantly kill their victim. When confronted with danger, the Marsupial Snake Eaters will attempt to flee, but will vigorously defend themselves when cornered. If all else fails they will play dead. Although they specialize in hunting cold blooded prey they will also eat smaller mammals, birds, insects, frogs, salamanders and carrion, as well as supplement their diet with vegetation. Lifespan is about 10 years. Females give birth to up to thirteen joeys, which reside in their mother's pouch for more than two months and strike out on their own after about 6 months.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 21.05.21 03:23. Заголовок: I was working in my ..


I was working in my ideas of birds for Florida and North America. I had these so far:

Marsh Oriole: I already suggested some others orioles in an early post, this one would also be a close related species to these. The Marsh oriole is 24 cm long, with a wingspan of 54 cm. The males are totally black, with the exception of their head, neck and breast that are bright orange. The females and the juvenile are olive-green on the upper parts and yellowish on the breast. All adults have pointed bills and white wing bars. This species is endemic to marshes and damp areas of the Florida Peninsula.

King woodpecker/Great Royal Woodpecker (Magnodryocopus regius): A descendant of the pileated woodpecker (Dryocopus pileatus), this species lives in the forests of North America from the Florida Peninsula to Mishe-Nama lake. The northern populations do short migrations during the winter, flying to southern regions.
The king woodpecker is a large bird; it has 65 cm o length and a wingspan of 80 cm. They are sexually dimorphic, the male has red plumage in the crest, head and neck, there is also the presence of a black line through their eyes. The female has a black head and feathers with shade of red in their crests. Both sexes are mostly black with white chests. They also have white primaries and secondaries feathers. Their beaks are long and grey. Young males are similar to the females until they reach sexual maturity with 5 years.
Other members of the Genus Magnodryocopus are:
Masked royal Woodpecker (Magnodryocopus nigrorostris)
Living in the forests of Southern North America (actual Mexico), this bird has 62 cm of length and 77 cm of wingspan.
Lesser royal woodpecker (Magnodryocopus minor)
Living in the semi-deciduous tropical forests of Great Antigua, this species is the smallest of the Genus with 51 cm of length and 69 cm of wingspan.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.05.21 07:24. Заголовок: JOrnitho Interesting..


JOrnitho Interesting ideas, I really like the idea of the migratory Orioles becoming non-migratory due to the Ice Age. Also, with raptors being hard hit by the extinction at the end of the Holocene, what are some species that you think could take their place? I know that their are a lot of eagle like corvids in Neocene North America, but what other bird families do you think could develop toward carnivory? Anyways, I can tell you put a lot of work into your species and that you have a very good grasp of biology btw, such as developing your own genus rather than just going from species to species.

So I came up with an idea for a large descendent of feral cat populations in eastern NA. My proposed species is a Scimitar-toothed cat, with shorter canines than true sabre-tooths. This beast similar to Dinofelis, Homotherium and Xenosmilus. These cats had shorter sabers that were about half the size of the more famous cats, such as Smilodon (Xenosmilus had 9 cm canines, compared with Smilodon's, which could measure 28 cm). Scimitar toothed cats were very widespread in the Pleistocene and only died out due to the disappearance of the large herbivores they depended on. With the reappearance of such creatures in the Neocene, in particular Peccary descendants, I think its a possibility that one such species could evolve from either feral or bobcat populations and flourish. This species is similar to those prehistoric animals and fills a similar niche. Here is my proposed species:

Verdugo (Rhomphaiadon Verdugo)
Order: Carnivora
Family: Felidae
Habitat: North America, forests and prairies from Mexico to Mishe-Nama lake
The Verdugo, also known as the Falx-toothed cat, is a species of large predatory feline native to the central and eastern portions of North America. The word Verdugo means "butcher" in Spanish, while the name of genus, Rhomphaiadon, translates roughly to "Rhomphaia tooth". The Rhomphaia, also known as the Falx or Sica, was an ancient sickle shaped weapon used by the Dacians in their wars against the Roman Empire and featured prominently in "Trajan's Column". The name refers to several distinctive traits unique to the species.
Like most other sabre-tooths, it has a stocky body, with robust forelimbs, a relatively short tail and an elongated muzzle compared to modern cats. Its canines are long, about 9 cms, which while longer than any living cat are much shorter than true sabre tooths. A unique characteristic of this species is that all of the Verdugo's teeth are serrated, not just the canines and incisors, a trait shared with several other prehistoric cats. The bite force is weak but the neck muscles are extremely robust, allowing the cat to withstanding pressures greater than its bite and deliver a devastating strike. The shorter fangs are less prone to breaking than the longer sabers of other sabre-tooths, such as the Siberian or Nearctic Sabretooth Lynxes. The Falx-tooth is about the size of a Lion. Body is about 2.3 meters long (including tail) and the height at the shoulder is 90 centimeters. Adults males average about 170 kgs, while females are generally smaller. Some exceptionally large specimens are known to exist, including some up to 200 kgs. The coat is tan, yellow or gray with large ocular spots that are brown and tan in color arranged in a tabby pattern, similar to an Oncilla or Ocelet. Individuals from colder climates have lighter colored fur and those from grasslands have less distinctive markings.
The Verdugo is a versatile animal that lives in a variety of habitat: forest, wetlands, savannah and scrublands. It is not found in extreme climates, such as deserts, high mountains, dense tropical rainforest and polar regions, and as such has not spread to the western side of the continent, its expansion blocked by the Rocky Mountains and the arid Mexican Plateau. It is not as common in places with less cover and in the prairies of central North America it is found in areas with light forests, meadows or tall grasses. Its expansion into this region is recent, due to the decline of the Sabre-toothed Coyote. Its northern and western range partially overlaps with the Neartic sabretooth. It co-exists with the Balam and Yarahka by filling a different niche: while the Balam and its relatives are generalist hunters, the Verdugo specializes in big game. The Verdugo is a social animal, though not to the same degree as Lions, and groups rarely exceed 6 individuals. A male will have a large range that will include several females and their cubs. While males tolerate the females, they are fiercely territorial toward other adult males and will not tolerate their presence. When males reach maturity, they leave the place of their birth in search of a territory of their own and may migrate hundreds of kilometers before settling down. In contrast, females tend to stay in the same general area.
The Verdugo is an ambush predator that specializes in hunting large prey. Its strategy is different than most cats when taking on megafauna: rather than wrestling the prey to the ground, the Verdugo prefers a bite and retreat technique, using its serrated teeth and long fangs to inflict deep wounds before retreating and letting the animal bleed out or weaken from blood loss. In a group, these cats can take on animals many times their weight, including large peccary descendants such as the Oimyanehe. When hunting these slow moving, thick skinned herbivores, the Verdugo will target juveniles, the elderly or those that have wandered off from the herd. If the element of surprise is lost, the cats will surround and attempt to bite the thighs or midsection of the prey. Once weakened, they will overpower the victim and use their teeth to disembowel it. In contrast, when hunting smaller or mid sized animals, the Verdugo will simply overpower the victim and kill it with a bite to the neck or abdomen. To prevent scavengers from taking the kill, the Verdugo will use its serrated teeth to dismember the carcass and transport the parts into its lair, either a den or up a tree.
Mating occurs in the spring. Pregnancy lasts about 90 days. The females can give birth to up to 4 cubs. The Verdugo reaches sexual maturity at 3 years of age, when the cubs leave their mother. While Verdugo females typically raise their offspring by themselves, they will occasionally be helped by the father or related females, and it is not uncommon for males to share their kills with one of their mates and her cubs. At maturity, the offspring leave to establish their own territories: females tend to stay close to their original birth place, while males will travel long distances to find a new territory and may be nomadic for years before settling down. While females have an average lifespan of 14 years, males typically live only between 9-11 years and are often killed in fights with other males.
With the decline of the Sabre-toothed Coyote, the Verdugo has started to expand its range westward away from the temperate and subtropical forests that it has traditionally thrived in, bringing it into contact with formidable competitors on the great plains of North America. The arrival of the Neartic Sabre-tooth in NA and its expansion further complicates the matter, and it remains to be seen whether the Falx-Tooth can survive these immigrants from Siberia.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.05.21 21:52. Заголовок: jorzek01 I'm hap..


jorzek01
I'm happy that you liked my ideas. My good grasp over biology is due to I being a biologist. I plan to specialize in Ornithology.
About birds that could become predatory, the great kiskadee (Pitangus sulphuratus), called bem-te-vi in Brazi, can prey upon small vertebrates such lizards and rodents. This bird is very common and can live from South America to the Lower Rio Grande Valley in southern Texas. I had an idea for this species, which is a descendant from this bird that fills the niche of shrikes (Laniidae), being strict predator of other vertebrates. Its name could be Butcher-kiskadee (Tyrannopitangus venator) and this genus would have species in South America and in North America. The butcher-kiskadee is the type species of the genus. These birds have 47 cm of length and a wingspan of 57 cm. The head is black with white in the sides near the eyes. The upperparts are greenish brown; the throat and breast are rufus. The belly is yellow. The pale grey beak is hooked, similar to the shrikes (Laniidae). Their feet are also pale grey.
I think that other group that could have predatory species is the Caprimulgidae. The Neocene already have a species of the family Nyctibiidae, the hawk potoo, that eats vertebrates. Perhaps in North America a descendant of the nighthawks (Chordeiles) became a nocturnal predator, maybe specialized to eat bats, passerines and small nightjars.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.05.21 10:31. Заголовок: JOrnitho My good gr..


JOrnitho

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My good grasp over biology is due to I being a biologist. I plan to specialize in Ornithology.


Great! We need such specialists! We had an ornithologist here - and a great one! - but he left the forum for unknown reasons several years ago. I am a biologist as well, but a microbiologist (you may've noticed my species of protozoa, fungi, bacteria and archaea in neocene). But let's not go deeper into offtopic.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.05.21 19:27. Заголовок: Биолог I saw some of..


Биолог
I saw some of your ideas in the Microorganism page. I liked my classes of microbiology in college, my professor worked as a search studying Trypanosoma cruzi in the Oswaldo Cruz Foundation and she had some interesting experiences to share. While I had these classes, I thought about a descendant of the Trypanosoma that would be able to penetrate through the bite of the insect vector, but never developed it.

Back to the topic, another idea for a bird of North America:
Carunculated swan (Neocygnus carunculatus)
This species lives at rivers, lakes, estuaries and costal lagoons in the temperate regions of North America. The largest population of this bird is located at the Mishe-Nama Lake, which is also the Northernmost point of the distribution of this species. When the winter arrives at the Northern Hemisphere, the carunculated swan migrates to Southeastern and Southern South America, where it stays in freshwater and brackish habitats. The great distance covered by it during the migration is a result of the Ice Age that happened during the end of the Holocene, seeking to flee from the cold, the ancestor of these birds were forced to migrate to low latitudes and reached South America. This migratory habit was passed to it descendants. The main characteristic of the carunculated swan is the pronounced reddish-pink caruncles at the base of the bill present in the males, the females lack this. Both sexes have nude reddish-pink faces, which together with the caruncle become bright red in the males during the mating season. This species have 138–165 cm in length and 185-250 cm in wingspan. The males are larger than the females. Another species in the Genus Neocygnus is the Florida swan (Neocygnus floridanus) is a close relative of the carunculated swan. This bird lives in the freshwater reservoirs of the Florida Peninsula, Cuba and Great Antigua. In comparison to its Northern relative, this species is smaller, with 87-115 cm of length and a wingspan of 155-160 cm. The male is larger than the female, but morphologically they are similar. In both sexes the beak is totally black. A dark red knob can be seen at the bill base, which is similar in colour to the bare skin of the face. Although not migratory, individuals of this species can be seen as vagrants in freshwater habitats in Mexico.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.05.21 20:19. Заголовок: JOrnitho a descenda..


JOrnitho

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a descendant of the Trypanosoma that would be able to penetrate through the bite of the insect vector, but never developed it


Why not? Go straight ahead! Making a descendant of Trypanosoma cruzi, the agent of Chagas disease, is an excellent idea! But it will require a vector (obviously a descendant of Triatoma "kissing" bug) and a host (obviously some large mammals).

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.05.21 20:28. Заголовок: Oh, by the way... We..


Oh, by the way... We maintain a catalogue of species proposed by the forum members right here, and your and jorzek01's species and ideas are all there - we do not miss a thing!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.21 00:58. Заголовок: Биолог JOrnitho A ch..


Биолог JOrnitho A chapter detailing the life cycle of this parasite and the animals infected would be interesting idea, since the Chagasparasite can be spread between numerous different species throughout its life cycle. Also, I did want to modify a few things and flesh out some of the ideas posted in order to give better descriptions for my lizard and snake ideas, so I've adjusted some of my earlier descriptions of reptile species. I also modified some deviant art maps of Neocene Earth on my computer in order to show the ranges of my proposed species, but do not know if posting them here would be considered plagiarism, since the original maps are not my work. I can also create range maps for any species proposed by you and anyone else in the forum, since I'm using the climate map.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.21 10:41. Заголовок: jorzek01 A chapter ..


jorzek01

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A chapter detailing the life cycle of this parasite and the animals infected would be interesting idea


Sure! We already have the Chapter 85 "Secret links" about parasites (only Russian, sorry), but this does not mean a second such chapter is impossible. See my reply to JOrnitho below.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.21 02:49. Заголовок: This is just a more ..


This is just a more detailed description of a previously described species of mine.
Clouded Python (Neopython Nebulus)
Order: Squamates
Familiy: Pythonidae
Habitat: Southeast corner of North America, including Florida, Cuba, Great Antigua and smaller islands
One of the most devestating effects of human domination was the introduction of invasive species. Few places on earth were as hard hit as Florida and the southeastern US, which saw many foreign reptile, bird and amphibian species establish themselves to the detriment of native wild life. Perhaps the most infamous of these was the Burmese Python.
In the Neocene, this snake has spawned numerous descendants in Neotropical North America and one of these has become a real giant. The Clouded Python is one of the largest snakes in North America and the largest native to the former US, the biggest individuals reaching a length of 9 meters. Females average 6 meters while males are smaller, generally around 5 meters long and much thinner. The pattern of the scales is reminiscent of a clouded leopard, with the spots forming faded ocular patterns. While much longer and heavier than its ancestor, it is less thick bodied, its length-weight ration being more similar to a Reticulated Python. This allows the snake to spend more time on land and even climb trees to some degree, although this species prefers wetlands and the forest floor over the tree tops. The Clouded Python is a versatile animal that is just as at home in the water as it is on land. This species has been found far out at sea and has colonized the islands of the Caribbean, where many populations of Dwarf Pythons exist on the smaller islands. The largest specimens are found in southern Florida and Cuba.
Mating occurs in the spring and females lay a clutch of about 40 eggs a few months later. Baby snakes are about 60 centimeters long and can reach 3 meters by about 6 months old. This snake an ambush predator that will feed on any animal it can catch, which include animals up to half its own body weight. Adults have few natural enemies, although juveniles may be eaten by various predators, including large cats, birds of prey, predatory fish, monitor lizards, tegus and other snakes, including members of their own species. Sexual maturity is reached at 5 years and lifespan is up to 30 years. In addition to the type population described above, there are two distinct dwarf populations:
1. Great Antiguan: Smaller their relatives on Cuba and the mainland, females average about 4 meters and rarely exceed 5.
2. Lesser Antillean: Smallest described subspecies, it does not exceed 4 meters in length.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.21 04:32. Заголовок: Биолог пишет: Why n..


Биолог пишет:

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Why not? Go straight ahead! Making a descendant of Trypanosoma cruzi, the agent of Chagas disease, is an excellent idea! But it will require a vector


I think that I'll start to work in it. I'm in doubt if this microrganism could have evolved to pass through the vector cycle inside the mouth of the insect or in the intestine, then it would migrate through the hemolymph to reach the mouth.

jorzek01
Do you believe that the Common starling that was introduced in North America could survive in the Neocene? I had an idea about a descendant of this bird migrating to South America in huge flocks.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.21 10:37. Заголовок: JOrnitho I'm in..


JOrnitho

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I'm in doubt if this microrganism could have evolved to pass through the vector cycle inside the mouth of the insect or in the intestine, then it would migrate through the hemolymph to reach the mouth.


It multiplies in the bug's midgut, as CDC states here:
https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/chagas/biology.html
So, adaptation to multiple new mammal hosts infected in a sequence would be a good idea! Especially if the parasite changes its life form in each host (motile/nonmotile, dormant/active etc.).

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.21 22:27. Заголовок: I organized my ideas..


I organized my ideas for the species of New World orioles:

American golden oriole (Icterinovus chryseus)
The Ice Age that occurred during the transition of Holocene to Neocene forced some species to migrate to southern regions. Certain species, even with the end of the Ice Age, remained in their new localities giving rise to a new genus. The Baltimore oriole (Icterus galbula) was one of these animals, with its descendants becoming the Genus Icterinovus, mostly non-migratory birds that are adapted to live in the ancient wintering regions of their ancestors. The type species of this Genus is the American golden oriole, a species of bird that inhabits the subtropical forests of North America, from the Florida peninsula to Texas.
It has 23 cm of length and 30 cm of wingspan, with males being slightly larger than females. This species has sexual dimorphism, with males being bright reddish-orange apart from the wings and tail. The females are yellow-brown on the upper parts with darker wings, and dull yellow on the breast and belly. Adults always have white bars on the wings. The beak of this species is dark grey, long and sharp. The legs are also dark grey.
American golden orioles forage in trees and shrubs, also making short flights to catch insects. They acrobatically clamber, hover and hang among foliage as they comb high branches. They also eat berries and nectar.
These birds are solitary outside their mating season. The species is monogamous, but extra-pair copulation is relatively common. In the spring, males establish a territory then display to females by singing and chattering while hopping from perch to perch in front of them. Males also give a bow display, bowing with wings lowered and tail fanned. Depending on their receptiveness, the females may ignore these displays or sing and give calls or a wing-quiver display in response. The wing-quiver display involves leaning forward, often with tail partly fanned, and fluttering or quivering slightly lowered wings.
The American golden oriole's nest is built by the female. It is a tightly woven pouch located on the end of a branch, consisting of any plant or animal materials available, hanging down on the underside. The trees chosen for the construction of the nest are usually 7 to 9 m. The female lays three to seven eggs. The eggs are bluish white and the incubation period is 12 to 14 days. Once the nestlings hatch, they are fed by regurgitation by both parents and brooded by the female for two weeks. After this the young start to fledge, becoming largely independent shortly thereafter. If the eggs, young, or nest are destroyed, this bird is unable to lay a replacement clutch. The lifespan of the American golden oriole is 10 years.
Other species in the genus are:

Black-throated oriole (Icterinovus nigrolaimus)
This species lives in the lowland forests of Great Antigua. The male is bright yellow apart from black in the face, throat, wings and tail. The females are yellow-brown on the upper parts with darker wings, and dull yellow on the breast and belly. This species has 20 cm of length and 28 cm of wingspan. The males are slightly large than females. All adults have pointed dark grey bills and white wing bars.

Masked oriole (Icterinovus splendidus)
This species lives in the woodlands and forests of North eastern Mexico. The male is bright yellowish orange apart from black plumage around the eyes, wings and tail. The females are yellow-brown on the upper parts with darker wings, and dull orange on the breast and belly. This species has 22 cm of length and 30 cm of wingspan. The males are slightly larger than females. All adults have pointed dark grey bills and white wing bars.

Black-headed oriole (Icterinovus maurocephalus)
This species is the only migratory representative of this genus. The breeding habitat of this bird is the semi-open areas with deciduous trees of North America and it winters in the tropical forests of Mexico, with some reaching the forests of Northern South America. The black-headed oriole is 19 cm long, with a wingspan of 29 cm. The males have black feathers in the head, wings and tail, while their chest, belly and back are reddish-orange. The females and the juvenile are olive-green on the upper parts and yellowish on the breast. All adults have pointed dark grey bills and white wing bars.

Marsh Oriole (Icterinovus palustris)
This species is endemic to marshes and damp areas of the Florida Peninsula. The Marsh oriole is 24 cm long, with a wingspan of 32 cm. The males are totally black, with the exception of their head, neck and breast that are bright orange. The females and the juvenile are olive-green on the upper parts and yellowish on the breast. All adults have pointed dark grey bills and white wing bars.

Amazonian oriole (Icterinovus flavoventer)
Living in the rainforests of Northern South America, this species shows how far some populations of Baltimore oriole reached when fleeing the cold of the Ice Age. Like its Northern relatives, the Amazonian oriole have sexual dimorphism, with the males having bright yellow feathers in the belly and flanks, while the rest of their plumage is black. The females and the juvenile are mostly greyish-brown, with pale yellow on the belly. All adults have pointed dark grey bills and white wing bars.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.05.21 23:59. Заголовок: I organized my descr..


I organized my descriptions about North American swans:
Carunculated swan (Neocygnus carunculatus)
The anthropogenic interference in the nature during the Holocene caused the extinction of several species. These that survived were able to continue their evolution and their descendants appeared in the Neocene. The Carunculated swan is the descendant of one of these survivors. This species lives at rivers, lakes, estuaries and costal lagoons in the temperate regions of North America. The largest population of this bird is located at the Mishe-Nama Lake, which is also the Northernmost point of the distribution of this species. When the winter arrives at the Northern Hemisphere, the carunculated swan migrates to Southeastern and Southern South America, where it stays in freshwater and brackish habitats. The great distance covered by it during the migration is a result of the Ice Age that happened during the end of the Holocene, seeking to flee from the cold, the ancestor of these birds were forced to migrate to low latitudes, reaching South America. This migratory habit was passed to it descendants.
As their name says, the main characteristic of the carunculated swan is the pronounced reddish-pink caruncles at the base of the bill present in the males, the females lack this. Both sexes have nude reddish-pink faces, which together with the caruncle become bright red in the males during the mating season. This species have 130–165 cm in length and 185-250 cm in wingspan. The males are larger than the females. Carunculated swans are heavy birds, with weight ranging from 12 to 18 kg. This swan beak is red and its large webbed feet are dark grey, the same color of the legs. Like many species of swan of the Holocene, the carunculated swan is totally covered in pure white feathers. The cygnets are grey, and their bill is dull greyish-black, not red, for the first year.
These birds feed on various plant matter, small aquatic insects, small fish, fish eggs and small crustaceans. They will eat both the leaves and stems of submerged and emergent vegetation. To reach the submerged vegetation these birds use their long necks. They will also dig into muddy substrate underwater to extract roots and tubers. Carunculated swans use their beak to turn the mud in search of crustaceans. Grazing in land is more common while in their wintering areas. They will often feed at night as well as by day. Feeding activity and the birds' weights increase in the spring as they prepare for the breeding season.
Carunculated swans nest on large mounds that they build with waterside vegetation in shallow water on islands in the middle or at the very edge of a lake. They are monogamous and often reuse the same nest each year, restoring or rebuilding it as needed. The female lays 3–12 eggs and both she and the male share the care of the nest, and once the cygnets are fledged it is not uncommon to see whole families looking for food. The incubation period is of 35 days, and the young are able to swim within two days and usually are capable of feeding themselves after, at most, two weeks. The fledging stage is reached at roughly 3 to 4 months. While nesting, these birds are strongly territorial with just a single pair on smaller habitats, though in a few locations where a large area of suitable feeding habitat is found they can be colonial. Adults go through a summer moult when they temporarily lose their flight feathers. The females become flightless shortly after the young hatch; the males go through this process about a month later when the females have completed their moult. The youngs will remain with their parents during the migration and in the wintering grounds, only leaving them after having returned to the nesting areas.
The carunculated swan is a relatively vocal bird, having high-pitched honking calls. These calls are more common to be heard while these birds are flying in their migration, this way the communication between the birds in maintained. To communicate with the cygnets, the parents make a variety of grunting, hoarse whistling, and snorting noises. A loud hiss is used to intimidate predators and conspecifics, who enter the nesting area. If this is not sufficient to drive off the predator, the swans attack by smashing at their enemy with bony spurs in the wings, accompanied by biting with their large bill, while smaller waterbirds are normally grabbed with the swan's bill and dragged or thrown clear of the swan and its offspring.
The carunculated swan has the ability to grieve for a lost or dead mate or cygnet. Swans will go through a mourning process, and in the case of the loss of their mate, may either stay where its counterpart lived, or fly off to join a flock. Should one of the pair die while there are cygnets present, the remaining parent will take up their partner's duties in raising the clutch. The carunculated swan starts to form pairs with 7 years and have a lifespan of 24 years.
The Florida swan (Neocygnus floridanus) is a close relative of the carunculated swan. This bird lives in the freshwater reservoirs of the Florida Peninsula, Cuba and Great Antigua. In comparison to its Northern relative, the Florida swan is smaller, with 87-115 cm of length and a wingspan of 155-160 cm. The male is larger than the female, but morphologically they are similar. In both sexes the beak is totally black. A dark red knob can be seen at the bill base, which is similar in colour to the bare skin of the face. Although not migratory, individuals of this species can be seen as vagrants in freshwater habitats in Mexico.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.05.21 09:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho Very good!..


JOrnitho
Very good! And I've updated the link to it in the catalogue.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.05.21 18:15. Заголовок: I was thinking, with..


I was thinking, with the climate being more warmer in North America during the Neocene, would be plausible for the trogons to expand their range? In the Holocene we already have the eared quetzal (Euptilotis neoxenus) and the elegant trogon ( Trogon elegans) that live in Mexico and can reach Arizona and New Mexico. Perhaps even descendants of more tropical species could expand their range to the North when the climate became more warmer.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.05.21 19:00. Заголовок: JOrnitho would be p..


JOrnitho

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would be plausible for the trogons to expand their range?


Why not? Absolutely possible, if they do not encounter competition from other birds.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.21 00:02. Заголовок: I made descriptions ..


I made descriptions for the predarory descendants of the great kiskadee that I mentioned:

Butcher-kiskadee (Confectorarius venator)
Human interference during the Holocene caused the extinction of many species. However some creatures were capable of surviving, one case was the great kiskadee (Pitangus sulphuratus). These birds survive and in the Neocene they give rise to the Genus Confectorarius (Confectorarius means slaughter; butcher in latin). The type species of this genus is the butcher-kiskadee, which lives in tropical areas of South America, forests and savannas.
These birds have 34 cm of length and a wingspan of 50 cm. The head is black with a strong white supercilium and a concealed bright red crown stripe, which is less bright in the females. The birds can make their crown stripe visible during certain ocasions. The upperparts are greenish brown; the throat and breast are rufus. The belly is yellow. The black beak is thick, long and has a sharp hooked tip, a characteristic common to all species of the Genus. Their feet are pale grey.
These birds feed on insects, arachnids, frogs, lizards, rodents and even other birds. Butcher-kiskadees will also attack nests of other birds to eat their chicks. The prey is caught in the middle of the vegetation. To kill the prey, they use the strong beak to knock them against branches or rock. Small prey is eaten whole, while large prey is eaten in small pieces which the bird take from it by using their sharp beak while holding it with its legs. These bird will store food by dismembering the prey in pieces and hidding it in tree holes and rock crevices, sometimes distant from each other, to be eaten another time, similar to what the shrikes (Laniidae) do with its prey. Is rare, but sometimes the butcher-kiskadee can feed on fruits.
It lives in couples, during the breeding season the males sing intensely to attract the female. If she becomes interested, she will fly to where he is singing. Then, the male will vocalize while opening his wings and bowing his head to the female, showing his red crown to her. If she accepts him, the female will imitate the male. After that the birds will fly together while they vocalize. These birds are aggressive, attacking other butcher-kiskadees in its territory. Most of the construction of the nest is work of the female, which uses plant fibers in the making of an open and deep bowl, coated with mosses. The nest is well secured in a fork of trees with the aid of spider webs. She lays white-red eggs with purple speckles. The male and female take turns incubating for about 19 days and feed the chicks. The young fledge with 21 days and reach sexual maturity with 2 years. The lifespan of this animal is 13 years.
Other species in the Genus Confectorarius:

Streaked butcher-kiskadee (Confectorarius cirratus)
Living in the tropical and subtropical forests from the Panama Strait to the Florida Peninsula, this bird has 30 cm of length and a wingspan of 46 cm. The head is dark brown with a concealed bright yellow crown patch, white supercilium and dusky eye mask. The crown in the females is less bright. The upperparts are greenish-brown with darker brown streaks on the back and rufous edges on the wings, and wide white edges on the rump and tail. The underparts are yellow streaked with brown.

Migratory butcher-kiskadee (Confectorarius migratorius)
This species lives in the temperate areas of North America, including the Great Plains. The Northernmost point of its distribution are the forests near the Mishe-Nama lake. The migratory butcher-kiskadee has 32 cm of length and a wingspan of 48 cm. The head is grey with a concealed bright reddish yellow crown patch, white supercilium and dark brown eye mask. The crown in the females is less bright. The upperparts are greenish-brown with dark grey streaks on the back and rufous edges on the wings, and chestnut edges on the rump and tail. The underparts are pale yellow streaked with rusty brown. During the winter, this species migrates to Cuba, Great Antigua, Panama Peninsula and the tropical forests of Northern South America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.21 10:25. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good ones!..


JOrnitho
Good ones! Added to the catalogues as well.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.21 23:01. Заголовок: I was working in the..


I was working in the descriptions for trogons of North America when I thought about other thing. With Cracidae extinct in the Neocene, other species started to fill its niche. So I thought what if a new group of birds (perhaps a new family) evolved from a Trogonidae ancestor to partially fill the niche of the Cracidae as a bird feeding of fruits and insects in the canopy? These birds could have originated in the tropical forests of Mexico and spread to Florida, Caribean Islands and with a representative in Northern South America. These birds could have the size of a guan and some species could have lifestyles similar to the turacos (Musophagidae) of Africa.

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Из скромности умолчу.




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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.21 05:56. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

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These birds could have the size of a guan


Trogons nest in hollows, so their sizes would be limited by sizes of appropriate tree-trunk hollows. Large hollows are rather rare.
Can large pigeons fit this ecological niche better?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.21 16:42. Заголовок: Автор I thought that..


Автор
I thought that they could evolve to use not only tree holes, but also in large rock crevices and holes in the gorund of slopes, like how some psittacids do. These birds could have developed strong legs and beak to excavate the ground to build nests.
Pigeons are good candidates to fill part of the cracids niches. Perhaps there is a sister group of the Neocene Peafowl pigeon from South America living in tropical and subtropical areas of the Panama Peninsula and North America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.06.21 16:10. Заголовок: I made some descript..


I made some descriptions inspired in the ideas of Автор about macaw-like parakeets. I think that I'll make a new thread to post it, because it can make this thread go off topic.

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Прильнувший к микроскопу




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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.06.21 18:03. Заголовок: JOrnitho Well, if y..


JOrnitho
Well, if your new parakeets are of Florida, you can post them here. But for other regions - yes, it is better to make a new topic.

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