Отправлено: 04.10.23 19:41. Заголовок: Speculative Evolution not related to the Neocene

After reading some articles about the Antropocene and the changes in natural life due to the climate change (such as this one:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11444045/Meet-bizarre-hybrid-animals-soon-roam-Earth-climate-change.html), I thought about doing my own speculative idea for the future of Earth. I saw that the forum have a space for other project ideas, but since it's in Russian, I thought that would be better to leave this space here.
The premise if that the humans became extinct (or left the planet, if following a more sci-fi path) due to catastrophic climate changes, which caused the melting of most of the polar ice capes and the collapse of the agriculture. The planktonic communities in the ocean declined, but not drastically like in the Neocene, allowing some marine mammals to survive. The corals that relied in zooxanthelas went extinct and the ocean level rised ro something similar to this map. Now 35 million years, the species that survived had evolved in new forms, while the sea level is slowly retroceding, signaling the arrival of an Ice Age. The continents changed their positions, with Central America mostly under water, with parts of it being islands. The Horn of Africa separated from the rest of the continent.
Everyone is welcome to help with ideas for the continents and creatures living on them. And even giving the name for this period. I thought that could be a good place to suggest species that weren’t approved to join the Neocene, but that could suit elsewhere.
So far, I thought that some marine survivors could be:
-The last ballen whale, a descendant of the reproduction between blue whales and fin whales. These hybrids only survived because their parental populations were absorbed in one, which the genes of the fin's are dominant over the blue's. Even then, this species suffered a drastic bootle neck effect and sighting it is very uncommon.
-Most cetaceans that still live are descendants of the common dolphin, the most populous species of cetacean. It gave origin to three groups: one replacing the orca, other replacing the beaked whales and other looking like traditional dolphins.
-A descendant of hybrids between dall's porpoise and harbour porpoise living in North Pacific.
-For terrestrial animals, I thought about a descendant of the brown bear with genes of their polar cousin. They are basically analogues to Arctodus in North America and maybe Eurasia.
-Deep water corals are slowly invading the areas of their extinct relatives due to the waters getting cooller due to Ice Age approaching.
Among some things that I thought that can be interesting are:
-Seals and penguins that need ice are extinct without descendants
-The Mediterranean still exist and the melting of the ice had made it swallow the lower parts of the Italian Peninsula and of Northern Africa. The Nile have a great delta.
Those are my thoughts for now. If anyone have ideas to help with it, feel free to share!

 Отправлено: 05.10.23 08:59. Заголовок: JOrnitho The last b..

JOrnitho

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The last ballen whale, a descendant of the reproduction between blue whales and fin whales. These hybrids only survived because their parental populations were absorbed in one, which the genes of the fin's are dominant over the blue's. Even then, this species suffered a drastic bootle neck effect and sighting it is very uncommon.

I'm not sure that baleen whales can survive if plankton will expirience drastic decline - they are huge, need many food and reproduce very slow. Humans almost made them extinct, so decreasing of food number also can.
But if you want to keep them alive, you should use small species - Bryde's whale and minke whale. They have bigger populations and more flexible diet (Bryde's whale is almost fully piscivorous). Gray whale is also interesting choise - it feeds on benthic crustaceans, but can also eat plankton like normal whales if they need.

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Most cetaceans that still live are descendants of the common dolphin

Why only common dolphin? Bottlenose dolphin is also very common species.

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Deep water corals are slowly invading the areas of their extinct relatives due to the waters getting cooller due to Ice Age approaching.

Why they're still alive? I read some articles that say thet they're very vuneable to problems with plankton and ocean acidification.

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Seals and penguins that need ice are extinct without descendants

Why do you think that they are so vuneable? Penguins and seals are also living in temperate or even tropic areas!

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Mediterranean still exist

How it fills with water? Gibraltar Strait may close in time of 35 myh.

 Отправлено: 05.10.23 12:56. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: I..

лягушка пишет:

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I'm not sure that baleen whales can survive if plankton will expirience drastic decline - they are huge, need many food and reproduce very slow. Humans almost made them extinct, so decreasing of food number also can. But if you want to keep them alive, you should use small species - Bryde's whale and minke whale. They have bigger populations and more flexible diet (Bryde's whale is almost fully piscivorous). Gray whale is also interesting choise - it feeds on benthic crustaceans, but can also eat plankton like normal whales if they need.

In this case, I think that the Bryde's whale could be better due to the larger populations. It would still suffer the bootleneck effect, because the fishes that they eat would decrease during the planktonic decline, also making the whales population to decrease. Perhaps their descendants could become sort off generalists, also eating plankton and fishes.

лягушка пишет:

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Why only common dolphin? Bottlenose dolphin is also very common species.

I forgot about the bottlenose dolphin. I think that the raptorial dolphin and the one filling the beaked whale niche could evolve from them. The rest would be from the common dolphin.

лягушка пишет:

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Why they're still alive? I read some articles that say thet they're very vuneable to problems with plankton and ocean acidification.

I thought that they could survive. Who you think that could replace the corals?

лягушка пишет:

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Why do you think that they are so vuneable? Penguins and seals are also living in temperate or even tropic areas!

The species that I thought that would be extinct are the ones that need ice for reproduction, such as the emperor penguin, antarctic and arctic seals. Others would still exist My doubt in the king penguin. Do you think that they could survive?

лягушка пишет:

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How it fills with water? Gibraltar Strait may close in time of 35 myh.

I thought that with the sea level high, the process would be delayed. Perhaps the strait will close and Mediterranean became a internal sea, which is slowly drying up.
Do you have ideas to help develop this speculative future?

 Отправлено: 05.10.23 17:29. Заголовок: JOrnitho Perhaps th..

JOrnitho

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Perhaps their descendants could become sort off generalists, also eating plankton and fishes.

Yeah, it can become generalist and next become bigger.

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Who you think that could replace the corals?

Many groups can build reefs! Coral polyps evolved into reef-builders many times, so soft corals may turn into reef builders again. Hydrozoan polyps are also good decision - their colonies can reach large sizes, and we have reef building hydrozoans now (fire corals, for example). But not only cnidarians can become reef-buliders - all invetebrates that have calcified skeleton or build "tubes" in what they live. For example, we have poorly understood glass sponge reefs that live in British Columbia.

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The species that I thought that would be extinct are the ones that need ice for reproduction, such as the emperor penguin, antarctic and arctic seals.

I understood you - you said not about all penguins and pinnipeds, but only about species that live in cold areas.
King penguins can survive, and not only them. Spheniscus species and little penguins also can survive.

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slowly drying up.

when Gibraltar closed first time 5-6 mya ago this sea dried very quickly in geological scales.

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Do you have ideas to help develop this speculative future?

If bears survived in this world, most of large fauna can. So this world would have much less changes than Neocene. For example, if mustangs survive, rapidocervus can't evolve and North America would be land of perissodactyls again. Scenario like that also should happen in Australia - it should be land of placentals, with huge dogs and cats hunting brumby descendants and giraffe-camels. It don't means end of marsupials - kangaroo still would be sucessfut.
And what about Antarctica? If it would melt out, it can have interesting fauna evolved mainly from birds and maybe bats.

 Отправлено: 05.10.23 18:36. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Many..

лягушка пишет:

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Many groups can build reefs! Coral polyps evolved into reef-builders many times, so soft corals may turn into reef builders again. Hydrozoan polyps are also good decision - their colonies can reach large sizes, and we have reef building hydrozoans now (fire corals, for example). But not only cnidarians can become reef-buliders - all invetebrates that have calcified skeleton or build "tubes" in what they live. For example, we have poorly understood glass sponge reefs that live in British Columbia.

I like the idea of the reefs during this age being formed by both hydrozoan polyps and polychaetas that build tubes.

лягушка пишет:

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I understood you - you said not about all penguins and pinnipeds, but only about species that live in cold areas. King penguins can survive, and not only them. Spheniscus species and little penguins also can survive.

Maybe the king penguin could grow large and replace the seals that went extinct in Antartica. The seals from temperate areas (harbour seal and grey seal) could move to North, evolving in new forms adapted to ice. Some birds could also replace seals in other parts of the North. In the South, the only pinnipeds that would remain are non threatened fur seals and maybe elephant seals. Even that I'm usure if they'll survive the planktonic decline.

лягушка пишет:

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when Gibraltar closed first time 5-6 mya ago this sea dried very quickly in geological scales.

Then it'll end as a desert, I was only wanting to have the shape of the continents different from the Neocene.

лягушка пишет:

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If bears survived in this world, most of large fauna can. So this world would have much less changes than Neocene. For example, if mustangs survive, rapidocervus can't evolve and North America would be land of perissodactyls again. Scenario like that also should happen in Australia - it should be land of placentals, with huge dogs and cats hunting brumby descendants and giraffe-camels. It don't means end of marsupials - kangaroo still would be sucessfut.

Yes! My idea is to also show how some introduced species ended surviving after the human extinction. So we would have descendants of goats, sheeps, horses, dogs, cats and other animals in the continents. In Australia, I think that descendants of dingoes should be the most successful predators. Large marsupial carnivores would be extinct, with the only survivors being the analogues to shrews. Kangaroos would stll be the most common herbivores, but what would be of the rabbits? I think that koalas would go extinct, being replaced by possums or wombats.

лягушка пишет:

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And what about Antarctica? If it would melt out, it can have interesting fauna evolved mainly from birds and maybe bats.

Since Antarctica is moving to South America, I think that we could have bats. It'll be mostly covered by tundra.
Between the extinction of the killer whales and the rise of the killer bottlenose dolphins, I think that we could have giant sharks in tropical and temperate areas as the main predators. They would be declining, slowly being replaced by new raptorial cetaceans.
Basically this period would be a new Pliocene, withan ice age approaching.

 Отправлено: 06.10.23 10:44. Заголовок: JOrnitho Maybe the k..

JOrnitho

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Maybe the king penguin could grow large and replace the seals that went extinct in Antartica. The seals from temperate areas (harbour seal and grey seal) could move to North, evolving in new forms adapted to ice. Some birds could also replace seals in other parts of the North. In the South, the only pinnipeds that would remain are non threatened fur seals and maybe elephant seals. Even that I'm usure if they'll survive the planktonic decline.

How would your seal-bird look? It would stay bipedal or will crawl on belly like pinnipeds?
I think that fur seals should survive - they're mid sized piscivores. But I think that elephant seals should die out, because they're too big and breed slover than most of seal species. But if you want to keep fur seals alive, penguin won't replace pinnipeds in Antarctica.

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Then it'll end as a desert

After turning into salt pan, it should be affected by orogeny and Iranian Plateu-like become mountain range. This mountains shouldn't be something outstanding, but in many places there will be remnants of salt pans - massive halite formations in surface, It should cause formation of salt lakes at many places. Freshwater lakes also should exist in places where salt isn't presented in surface. It makes enviroment of this ridge more diverse than today's Asian plateus. This things should forme approximately in 30-50 myh.

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In Australia, I think that descendants of dingoes should be the most successful predators. Large marsupial carnivores would be extinct, with the only survivors being the analogues to shrews. Kangaroos would stll be the most common herbivores, but what would be of the rabbits? I think that koalas would go extinct, being replaced by possums or wombats.

How would your mega-dingoes like? Should they be convergent to amphycyons or just stay typical dogs.
I agree with you about marsupials of Australia, but don't forget that in 35 myh it should collide with Nev Guinea isles and approach equator!

 Отправлено: 06.10.23 15:00. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: How ..

лягушка пишет:

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How would your seal-bird look? It would stay bipedal or will crawl on belly like pinnipeds? I think that fur seals should survive - they're mid sized piscivores. But I think that elephant seals should die out, because they're too big and breed slover than most of seal species. But if you want to keep fur seals alive, penguin won't replace pinnipeds in Antarctica.

I was thinking in birds like the extinct Plotopteridae and giant auk. Since the fur seals have a good chance of surviving, how do you think that their descendants could evolve?

лягушка пишет:

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After turning into salt pan, it should be affected by orogeny and Iranian Plateu-like become mountain range. This mountains shouldn't be something outstanding, but in many places there will be remnants of salt pans - massive halite formations in surface, It should cause formation of salt lakes at many places. Freshwater lakes also should exist in places where salt isn't presented in surface. It makes enviroment of this ridge more diverse than today's Asian plateus. This things should forme approximately in 30-50 myh.

In this case, I think that wild asses, descendants of goats, ostriches and camels could be migrating through these areas.

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How would your mega-dingoes like? Should they be convergent to amphycyons or just stay typical dogs. I agree with you about marsupials of Australia, but don't forget that in 35 myh it should collide with Nev Guinea isles and approach equator!

I thought that the dingo could evolve into amphycyon-like forms. Perhaps more marsupial forms would appear in the lands of New Zealand. The mega-dingo could be adapted to live in open areas, while these tropical forests there is at least one descendant of the quoll.

Other ideas that I had are:
-Giant sharks that are declining because the coming ice age. These can be like a megalodon and plankton feeding. Their decline could mark the rise of new cetacean forms, maybe some descendants of the common dolphin are involving into plankton feeding species? The descendant of the Bryde's whale also started eating plankton recently.
-Descendants of grey seals evolving in analogues of elephant seals in the North Atlantic.
-The largest bird of the period being a descendant of the brown bobby. It would be an analogue of the pelagornis.
Any ideas for other species?

 Отправлено: 07.10.23 19:53. Заголовок: JOrnitho how do you..

JOrnitho

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how do you think that their descendants could evolve?

If penguin-like birds should evolne in your "Neo-Pliocene", they should live in remote islands that should emerge in this age, where mammalian carnivores can't reach them. I also recommend you doing them in Northern Hemisphere, where penguins are absent. They can coexist with seals like penguins and great auks did, I think it's not a problem.
What ancestors you wat to use for them? I think loons are the best ones. They're almost flying versions of extinct hesperornithids. Loons and some Arctic anatids should also be interisting.

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I think that wild asses, descendants of goats, ostriches and camels could be migrating through these areas.

Yeah!

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These can be like a megalodon

I don't think so - megalodon were specialised mega-scavenger. Ih sea won't be full of marine mammals like it was in Neogene, I don't see reasons for evolution of megalodon-like sharks.

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maybe some descendants of the common dolphin are involving into plankton feeding species

I don't think that dolphins should evolve into filter feeders - they're specialised pack hunting piscivores. However, they can evolve in new, aberrant forms like they did in Miocene, for example become bentophages with some tusk-like teeth to burrow for prey or miniscue suction feeders with reduced teeth.

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brown bobby

I think some procellariforms should be better choice - they already have preadaptations for gliding for very long distances without moving wings like Pelagornis did. They also are biggest of Holocene birds by wingspan.

 Отправлено: 07.10.23 20:17. Заголовок: I don't think th..

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I don't think that dolphins should evolve into filter feeders - they're specialised pack hunting piscivores.

But could they evolve into a Janjucetus-like species?

 Отправлено: 07.10.23 20:29. Заголовок: медведь But could t..

медведь

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But could they evolve into a Janjucetus-like species?

Yes, they can. But it should look like in other way - Janjucetus was stem-mysticete, so it hasn't developed any echolocation at its evolutionary stage. So it should be just bottlenose dolphin filling niche of leopard seal as small marine mammal hunter living in shallow seas.

 Отправлено: 07.10.23 20:54. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: If p..

лягушка пишет:

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If penguin-like birds should evolne in your "Neo-Pliocene", they should live in remote islands that should emerge in this age, where mammalian carnivores can't reach them. I also recommend you doing them in Northern Hemisphere, where penguins are absent. They can coexist with seals like penguins and great auks did, I think it's not a problem. What ancestors you wat to use for them? I think loons are the best ones. They're almost flying versions of extinct hesperornithids. Loons and some Arctic anatids should also be interisting.

I thought that loons could be the perfect ancestor, they could live in islands of North Pacific and Atlantic. They would be the analogues to Pontopteridae. I also thought that the razorbill could evolve in a flightless form.

лягушка пишет:

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I don't think so - megalodon were specialised mega-scavenger. Ih sea won't be full of marine mammals like it was in Neogene, I don't see reasons for evolution of megalodon-like sharks.

In this case, maybe a species more similar to Carcharodon carcharias would make more sense?

лягушка пишет:

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I don't think that dolphins should evolve into filter feeders - they're specialised pack hunting piscivores. However, they can evolve in new, aberrant forms like they did in Miocene, for example become bentophages with some tusk-like teeth to burrow for prey or miniscue suction feeders with reduced teeth.

I like these ideas. My first thoughts for these cetaceans was that they would have modified teeth like those of the crabeater seal, being used to strain crustaceans from the water.

лягушка пишет:

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I think some procellariforms should be better choice - they already have preadaptations for gliding for very long distances without moving wings like Pelagornis did. They also are biggest of Holocene birds by wingspan.

Maybe a larger descendant of the fulmars? Do you have ideas for adaptations that this bird could have? Perhaps pseudoteeth to easily kill prey?

лягушка пишет:

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Yes, they can. But it should look like in other way - Janjucetus was stem-mysticete, so it hasn't developed any echolocation at its evolutionary stage. So it should be just bottlenose dolphin filling niche of leopard seal as small marine mammal hunter living in shallow seas.

In this case, I think that it could eat small seabirds, while also being hunted by larger cetaceans.

 Отправлено: 08.10.23 03:34. Заголовок: I had an idea for a ..

I had an idea for a descendant of the grey seal, with it becoming large like the elephant seal and filling its niche. Do you have ideas for the descendants of the common seal? One of them could be an analogue of the leopard seal, hunting seabirds and pups of other species of seals. Meanwhile in the Southern Hemisphere,it would be a dolphin who hunts the sea birds.
I think that they would have genetic material from the close related spotted seal.
Also, do you think that any of these new seal species would be able to reach places like the Caribbean Sea or Hawaii?
Besides these ideas, I also thought about a descendant of fur seal feeding on bivalves and crustaceans by using strong mandibles to crush them.

 Отправлено: 08.10.23 10:27. Заголовок: My first thoughts fo..

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My first thoughts for these cetaceans was that they would have modified teeth like those of the crabeater seal, being used to strain crustaceans from the water.

One theory concerning Janjucetus says that it was like that!

 Отправлено: 08.10.23 17:48. Заголовок: I had some doubts ab..

I had some doubts about the survival of ungulates. Donkeys could survive in South America, Africa and Asia, but what abould horses? Where do you think that they could survive? There is already wild horses in Europe and North America, do you think that they could live here? Would they develop new forms?
Also, camelids is another concern. I see the dromedaries surviving, both in Africa, Asia and Australia. With the closing of the Mediterranean sea, I can see then crossing to Europe too. Could they get new forms?
What could happen with New World camelids? Would they survive?

 Отправлено: 08.10.23 18:59. Заголовок: Could they get new f..

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Could they get new forms?

Maybe there will be Alticamelus-like forms?

 Отправлено: 09.10.23 00:55. Заголовок: медведь пишет: Mayb..

медведь пишет:

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Maybe there will be Alticamelus-like forms?

I thought that it could happen. The giraffes would be extinct, so these alticamelus-like could replace them in Africa. Unless antelopes have a best chance of doing it. In this case, these giant camelus could live in Asia.

 Отправлено: 09.10.23 10:48. Заголовок: JOrnitho I had some..

JOrnitho

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I had some doubts about the survival of ungulates. Donkeys could survive in South America, Africa and Asia, but what abould horses? Where do you think that they could survive? There is already wild horses in Europe and North America, do you think that they could live here? Would they develop new forms?

I think donkeys definitely will survive - they're ecologically flexible species. Do you have ideas what we can do with them?
Horses also should survive in most of places where it were introduced by the same reason. However, I don't know what we can do with them apart of refilling exctint Equus species niches. Horse megafauna looks interesting, but their one-toed feet can be a problem.

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Also, camelids is another concern. I see the dromedaries surviving, both in Africa, Asia and Australia. With the closing of the Mediterranean sea, I can see then crossing to Europe too. Could they get new forms? What could happen with New World camelids? Would they survive?

I think they definitely can survive because they're already adapted for living in harsh conditions of extinction. I have some ideas of their descendants:
- In Australia, camels can fill most of megafauna niches, but shouldn't evolve in cursorial forms like they did in Neocene because of this niche is already being filled by brumbees. For example, they can evolve into Alticamelus analogs
- Arctic mammoth steppe, if it shall appear, can support huge wooly camels filling niche of mammoths. They also can have relatives in African savannahs.
- Alticamelus analogues also can evolve in Africa, filling giraffe niche.
- Most of other camels should have basal niche and anatomy. But I think you can do something interesting with them!
Llamas also should survive, but if climate should warm up, tehey should face problems with habitat loss.

 Отправлено: 09.10.23 14:50. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: I th..

 Отправлено: 10.10.23 08:22. Заголовок: JOrnitho I can'..

JOrnitho
I can't see your new messages! I don't know what's going on, but it's a problem.

 Отправлено: 10.10.23 09:54. Заголовок: Neither can I, JOrni..

Neither can I, JOrnitho!

 Отправлено: 10.10.23 12:13. Заголовок: Do you can see it no..

Do you can see it now? Yesterday my messages weren’t appearing!

лягушка пишет:

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I think donkeys definitely will survive - they're ecologically flexible species. Do you have ideas what we can do with them? Horses also should survive in most of places where it were introduced by the same reason. However, I don't know what we can do with them apart of refilling exctint Equus species niches. Horse megafauna looks interesting, but their one-toed feet can be a problem.

I thought that they could become analogues to zebras in some areas, such savannas of Africa and South America. For horse, I thought that there could be large species living in the steppes. Their one-toed feet limits their body changes, so I thought that their evolution would be a matter of size, with smaller species appearing in some areas.
Perhaps slim and small forms appearing in the North American praries, while large and thick forms appears in the tundra.

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In Australia, camels can fill most of megafauna niches, but shouldn't evolve in cursorial forms like they did in Neocene because of this niche is already being filled by brumbees. For example, they can evolve into Alticamelus analogs

I like it! The descendants of the brumbies could have evolved into smaller forms adapted to hot areas due to the climatic change. They would be hunted by the amphycyon-like dingoes and whatever carnivore appeared in the continent.

лягушка пишет:

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Arctic mammoth steppe, if it shall appear, can support huge wooly camels filling niche of mammoths. They also can have relatives in African savannahs. - Alticamelus analogues also can evolve in Africa, filling giraffe niche. - Most of other camels should have basal niche and anatomy. But I think you can do something interesting with them! Llamas also should survive, but if climate should warm up, tehey should face problems with habitat loss.

I like those too. The Alticamelus analogues could have first appeared in Africa and spread to Europe and Asia. I can see some cursorial forms appearing, perhaps to replace some antelopes. The giant artctic camel is a good idea, they could replace the European bison.
Talking about mammoths, I think that hyrax could evolve to partialy replace elephants and rhinoceros. They could evolve astrapotherium and toxodon-like forms that are slowly moving out of Africa, into Europe through the closed Gibraltar strait. Maybe they reach Asia at some point.

 Отправлено: 11.10.23 09:40. Заголовок: JOrnitho Do you can..

JOrnitho

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Do you can see it now? Yesterday my messages weren’t appearing!

Now I see your message!

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smaller forms adapted to hot areas due to the climatic change.

I think Australia should have moist and warm climate and approach close to equator. So it should like South America, but with moonsons.

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I think that hyrax could evolve to partialy replace elephants and rhinoceros. They could evolve astrapotherium and toxodon-like forms that are slowly moving out of Africa, into Europe through the closed Gibraltar strait. Maybe they reach Asia at some point.

Basal hyraxes from family Pliohyracidae already were megafauna species and lived in Asia. However, this lineage died out afrer beginning of ice age. Also, they looked like poorly drawn peccary, not South American megarauna. But i think evolution of rhino-like hyraxes also won't be problem.

 Отправлено: 11.10.23 15:14. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: I th..

лягушка пишет:

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I think Australia should have moist and warm climate and approach close to equator. So it should like South America, but with moonsons.

So maybe there is a species of horse adapted to forests? They could slim and smaller than present horses.

лягушка пишет:

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Basal hyraxes from family Pliohyracidae already were megafauna species and lived in Asia. However, this lineage died out afrer beginning of ice age. Also, they looked like poorly drawn peccary, not South American megarauna. But i think evolution of rhino-like hyraxes also won't be problem.

I think that they could look like basal rhinoceros, without horns, but sill large in size.
I also thought that the saiga could evolve in a bull-like form.
For predators, I thought that seriemas could become terror bird-like, specialized in hunting descendants of the introduced Antilope cervicapra in South America. In Africa and Eurasia, maybe the leopards could continue with a lineage of pantherine predators, ranging from a leopard size to that of a tiger. They are the Panthera with the greatest chance of surviving.

 Отправлено: 12.10.23 09:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho So maybe t..

JOrnitho

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So maybe there is a species of horse adapted to forests? They could slim and smaller than present horses.

Yeah, I think they can. This animals should look like some sort of perissodactylian musk deer, I think.

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I also thought that the saiga could evolve in a bull-like form.

i think that saiga should die out - it's critically endangered species now.

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For predators, I thought that seriemas could become terror bird-like, specialized in hunting descendants of the introduced Antilope cervicapra in South America. In Africa and Eurasia, maybe the leopards could continue with a lineage of pantherine predators, ranging from a leopard size to that of a tiger. They are the Panthera with the greatest chance of surviving.

Yeah, they can. However, it's more likely for sereima to develop dromaeosaur-like claws, not massive beak - it can be more effective against small prey, but not large. Antilopes can be hunted not by neo-bird of terror, but by pumas ore massive descendants of Leopardus species.
I thing leopard can survive and continue lineage of pantherines, but I think that it's more realistic and interesting to wipe it out and give way to other felids. Most of Afro-Eurasia should be occupied by caracals, they can evolve into saber-toothed forms. Descendants of Felis genus, like african wildcat or feral cat descendants, also can evolve into big carnivores. Serval can take niche of cheetah in African savannahs. In both Americas, mountain lion lineage should continue and evolve into dominant macro-carnivores.

 Отправлено: 12.10.23 14:13. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: i th..

лягушка пишет:

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i think that saiga should die out - it's critically endangered species now.

I agree, I thought that they survival in the Neocene was already improbable. I think that in this case, the domestic cattle had more chance of surviving in wild forms. Or it dies out and the goats or antelopes evolve to bull-like forms. By the way, which species of antelope you think that could survive?

лягушка пишет:

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Yeah, they can. However, it's more likely for sereima to develop dromaeosaur-like claws, not massive beak - it can be more effective against small prey, but not large. Antilopes can be hunted not by neo-bird of terror, but by pumas ore massive descendants of Leopardus species.

It makes sense. The descendant of the Leopardus could have a cheetah-like form.

лягушка пишет:

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I thing leopard can survive and continue lineage of pantherines, but I think that it's more realistic and interesting to wipe it out and give way to other felids. Most of Afro-Eurasia should be occupied by caracals, they can evolve into saber-toothed forms. Descendants of Felis genus, like african wildcat or feral cat descendants, also can evolve into big carnivores. Serval can take niche of cheetah in African savannahs. In both Americas, mountain lion lineage should continue and evolve into dominant macro-carnivores.

I like all these ideas! Besides these felines in Africa, the spotted hyena and striped hyena could also survive. In North America, descendants of coywolves could replace the true wolf. In South America, there could be descendants of the domestic dog hunting like African wild dog. Do you have other idea for canids and predators?

 Отправлено: 14.10.23 18:54. Заголовок: JOrnitho Or it dies..

JOrnitho

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Or it dies out and the goats or antelopes evolve to bull-like forms. By the way, which species of antelope you think that could survive?

Yeah, I think that goats and antelopes can evolve into something cattle-like.
You also asked what antelopes can survive. I don't know them well enough, but I think that some members of gazella genus, oryx, impala and someone from hartebeest lineage should survive. Bovinae lineage also shouldn't die out.

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The descendant of the Leopardus could have a cheetah-like form.

yeah, they can!

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Do you have other idea for canids and predators?

Huge raccoons at Sount America?

 Отправлено: 14.10.23 19:42. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Yeah..

лягушка пишет:

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Yeah, I think that goats and antelopes can evolve into something cattle-like. You also asked what antelopes can survive. I don't know them well enough, but I think that some members of gazella genus, oryx, impala and someone from hartebeest lineage should survive. Bovinae lineage also shouldn't die out.

I think that domestic cattle could survive in most continents, perhaps the return of auroch-like forms. The domestic yak could survive in the himalayas and perhaps other areas of Asia.

лягушка пишет:

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Huge raccoons at Sount America

They could become bear like.

 Отправлено: 14.10.23 21:21. Заголовок: They could become be..

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They could become bear like

Like Chapalmalania?

 Отправлено: 15.10.23 02:36. Заголовок: медведь пишет: Like..

медведь пишет:

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Like Chapalmalania?

Yes! There could even be one eating bamboos, like a panda.

 Отправлено: 15.10.23 09:34. Заголовок: медведь Like Chapal..

медведь

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Like Chapalmalania?

Yeah! I mean this body shape.
Also, should South Ameica be isolated in your project? If not, bear-like raccons and some other species like velociraptor-sereimas can't exist due the concurence.

 Отправлено: 15.10.23 10:35. Заголовок: There could even be ..

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There could even be one eating bamboos, like a panda.

Interesting! For some reason, in South America have never been any large bamboo-eaters like pandas, gorillas and Gigantopithecus.

 Отправлено: 15.10.23 15:20. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Yeah..

лягушка пишет:

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Yeah! I mean this body shape. Also, should South Ameica be isolated in your project? If not, bear-like raccons and some other species like velociraptor-sereimas can't exist due the concurence.

I thought that the Panama landbridge would have collapsed due to tectonic movements.

 Отправлено: 15.10.23 19:05. Заголовок: JOrnitho I thought ..

JOrnitho

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I thought that the Panama landbridge would have collapsed due to tectonic movements.

Ok, it makes sense.

 Отправлено: 25.10.23 12:16. Заголовок: Regarding the Amazon..

Regarding the Amazon, I thought that due to rise of the sea level and tectonic movements, the entire basin could have become an internal sea, which would be surrounded by mangrove forest. In a place like this one, an endemic species of sea dolphin could appear, together with giant capybaras, caimans, turtles, aquatic birds and several other species.

 Отправлено: 25.10.23 21:03. Заголовок: Regarding the Amazon..

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Regarding the Amazon, I thought that due to rise of the sea level and tectonic movements, the entire basin could have become an internal sea, which would be surrounded by mangrove forest. In a place like this one, an endemic species of sea dolphin could appear, together with giant capybaras, caimans, turtles, aquatic birds and several other species.

Actually, if I remember correctly, it has been a bay when the Andes rose and blocked Amazon´s flow to the Pacific Ocean, but when it had not yet found a route to Atlantic.
I think there will be giant stingrays too!

 Отправлено: 26.10.23 05:16. Заголовок: медведь пишет: Actu..

медведь пишет:

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Actually, if I remember correctly, it has been a bay when the Andes rose and blocked Amazon´s flow to the Pacific Ocean, but when it had not yet found a route to Atlantic. I think there will be giant stingrays too!

Yes! And there would be sharks too.
Another idea that I had was that the hyrax could give rise to a genus that have structures like those of the brontotheres, with each species having one of a different shape. Another lineage of descendants of the hyrax would be large like paraceratherium, but filling the niche of elephants.

 Отправлено: 26.10.23 11:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho Another id..

JOrnitho

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Another idea that I had was that the hyrax could give rise to a genus that have structures like those of the brontotheres, with each species having one of a different shape. Another lineage of descendants of the hyrax would be large like paraceratherium, but filling the niche of elephants.

Yes, hyraxes can evolve into brontotherium-like of forms as they did it in Neocene!
However, I don't think that something paraceratherium-sized should evolve in future without large mass exctinction. Paraceratheres became so huge to defend against cumbersome hoofed carnivores, and now their niche is occupied by giraffes.

 Отправлено: 26.10.23 13:35. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Howe..

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However, I don't think that something paraceratherium-sized should evolve in future without large mass exctinction. Paraceratheres became so huge to defend against cumbersome hoofed carnivores, and now their niche is occupied by giraffes.

Maybe them can reach the size of elephants? Giraffes would be extinct, being replaced by camels. However, the niche of elephants would be left vacant.
Unless you think that they can survive.

 Отправлено: 26.10.23 15:05. Заголовок: JOrnitho Yeah, elep..

JOrnitho
Yeah, elephants should went extinct due hunting and slow reproduction. I think they should be replaced by something chalicothere-like. Trunked pigs also can evolve, but they may be hippo-like, not elephant-like.

 Отправлено: 26.10.23 21:38. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Yeah..

лягушка пишет:

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Yeah, elephants should went extinct due hunting and slow reproduction. I think they should be replaced by something chalicothere-like. Trunked pigs also can evolve, but they may be hippo-like, not elephant-like.

The hyraxes could give rise to a chalicothere-like lineage.