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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.03.22 17:24. Заголовок: Galliformes and other animals for South America (продолжение)


Hello! I'm back with ideas for some new species for South America. I found in my computer an archive with some ideas for fauna and flora that I had some time ago and decided to show there to ask your opinion about them. The first is about a descendant of the domestic chicken.

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I also have in this archive some names for possible species that I never developed bayond some few facts. Maybe someone could help me make their descriptions.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.06.23 05:51. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: but..


JOrnitho пишет:

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but I would like if it was the Cavia fulgida. This species could be endemic to the Atlantic Forest.


Ok!
And you want to make a bat that would eat its parasites who will be ancestor?

JOrnitho пишет:

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I agree!


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

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I think that we could have the ancestor being the Akodon cursor.


Will be interesting to describe evolution from small rodent to omnivourus and on the half carnivourus ( he can have diet like of galictis) animal became like Adalatherium.

JOrnitho пишет:

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In this case, I think that we can use the Acacia and even make some species of insects associated to it.


And better second variant of Acacia. Some ants ( they will be nocturnal ants!!!), some butterfly that canterpillar make sweet excudate for ants, some grubs of wood moth and scarab beetles. And not only insects, but it's symbiotic fungi.

You have nothing said about the idea of this animal:
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You don't like the idea?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
this Tuco-tuco could have a flat skull to help excavate the ground.


Yes, it could! But there are several species of tuco- tuco, and it seems to me no one in Atlantic forest. What species of tuco-tucos can get there?

And that is enouph species for nocturnal chapter.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.06.23 17:21. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: And y..


wovoka пишет:

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And you want to make a bat that would eat its parasites who will be ancestor?


It could be the Myotis bat.

wovoka пишет:

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You don't like the idea?


I like it!

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Yes, it could! But there are several species of tuco- tuco, and it seems to me no one in Atlantic forest. What species of tuco-tucos can get there?


I think that Ctenomys brasiliensis could expand its territory.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.06.23 22:09. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: It ..


JOrnitho пишет:

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It could be the Myotis bat.


Myotis nigricans or Myotis albescens?
Which is better
They are the most widespread in that region.

JOrnitho пишет:

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I like it!


Thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

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I think that Ctenomys brasiliensis could expand its territory.


Are you sure it will survive to neocene?

According to iucnredlist
https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/5800/22192465
The Data Deficient about this species.

"This species is known only from the type locality and no population data is available".

May be it will be Ctenomys torquatus? It has more chances to survive. But it is distributed somewhat to the south of the Atlantic forest, although it is possible that by the Neocene it will be able to spread to the north and get into the Atlantic forest.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 00:35. Заголовок: The ants that will l..


The ants that will live in acacia may be Camponotus sericeiventris. Now they are diurnal but they can became nocturnal. There are now nocturnal species of Campopotus.
The canterpillar that will make sweet excudat for ants may be Strymon mulucha.
Wood moth eating acacia wood can be Morpheis xylotribus.
The larvas of scarab beetles eating acacia wood will be interesting to make from Diloboderus abderus.
On the tree can be fungi Lycoperdon pyriforme.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 00:53. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Myoti..


wovoka пишет:

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Myotis nigricans or Myotis albescens?
Which is better
They are the most widespread in that region.


I think that it can be Myotis nigricans.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be it will be Ctenomys torquatus? It has more chances to survive. But it is distributed somewhat to the south of the Atlantic forest, although it is possible that by the Neocene it will be able to spread to the north and get into the Atlantic forest.


Then we can use its one. There is also the small Blarinomys breviceps that could grow larger and evolve into the species that we talked about.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
The ants that will live in acacia may be Camponotus sericeiventris. Now they are diurnal but they can became nocturnal. There are now nocturnal species of Campopotus.
The canterpillar that will make sweet excudat for ants may be Strymon mulucha.
Wood moth eating acacia wood can be Morpheis xylotribus.
The larvas of scarab beetles eating acacia wood will be interesting to make from Diloboderus abderus.
On the tree can be fungi Lycoperdon pyriforme.


I agree.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 14:18. Заголовок: wovoka I think that ..


wovoka
I think that we could have a descendant of the eucalyptus, but it could live in the dry forests of transitional areas between Atlantic Forest, Caatinga and Cerrado, with some even living in the Cerrado. They would fare well in these areas that have wildfires. Then we can make some interesting animals adapted to live with these trees, like a monkey adapted to eat its leaves.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 20:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

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I think that it can be Myotis nigricans.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

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Then we can use its one. There is also the small Blarinomys breviceps that could grow larger and evolve into the species that we talked about.


I don't even know whom to choose: Ctenomys torquatus or Blarinomys breviceps. Better you decide, you are the specialist in rodents and this is your native land & you know everything about this region, unlike me.

I was writing that Acacia mearnsii in Australia has symbiosis with different edible mycorrhizal fungi that love to eat different marsupials. This fungi are Mesophelliaceae from the genera Castoreum and Mesophellia, which can make symbiosis with acacias and eucalyptus. There are two fungis Mesophelliaceae that I found in South America just from south of Brazil in Eucalyptus plantations of Rio Grande do Sul is invasive Chondrogaster pachysporus and Chondrogaster angustisporus where it is live in symbiosis with different eucalyptus, it is tuber like mushroom, but I couldn't find out if they are edible. May be one of them can make a symbiosis to neocene with Acacia mearnsii and our big eared opossum and may be necrolestes like animal will learn to find it by smell underground, pull it out of the ground and adapt to eat it and spread its spores.

The other variant to take real tuber and make mycorrhizal symbiosis with it and acacia, but there is only one tuber in the world that sometimes make such symbiosis is chinese Tuber indicum, but is not cultivated in South America, like Tuber melanosporum, Tuber borchii and Tuber magnatum in Southern Chile and Argentina.

The only tuber, and it is edible by different animals, that can be find in Atlantic forest is invasive Tuber floridanum that make symbiosis with also invasive Carya illinoinensis.

So what do you think, which variant is better:
1. Chondrogaster pachysporus or Chondrogaster angustisporus (but we don't know if they are edible and there is no information if at list one of them can make nowadays symbiosis with acacia, but taking into account that a lot of Mesophelliaceae can do it, may be it also will make it to neocene);
2. Tuber floridanum (we know that it is edible by different animals (in North America it's squirrels and wild pigs), but this mushroom is very malodorant & have probably a multimillion-year ecological connection with Carya illinoinensis and if this tree will survive in Atlantic forest to neocene this connection will stay very strong).


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that we could have a descendant of the eucalyptus, but it could live in the dry forests of transitional areas between Atlantic Forest, Caatinga and Cerrado, with some even living in the Cerrado. They would fare well in these areas that have wildfires. Then we can make some interesting animals adapted to live with these trees, like a monkey adapted to eat its leaves.


About species of eucalyptus that are cultivating in huge plantations in different regions of Brazil
https://www.ieabioenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IEA_Bioenergy_Task43_PR2011-02.pdf

So it can be a separate chapter about eucalyptus forest in some region of Brazil. Or eucalyptus & acacia forest, because these trees often cultivate together because mycorrhizal symbionts of acacia (fungis and Rhizobias) enrich the soil with nitrogen.

So we can make monkeys living on eucalyptus and every species that we decided will live on Acacia mearnsii (including big eared opossum, ants, butterfly, moth, scarab beetle, mushroom, and may be pseudonecrolestes that could also eat that mushrooms) we can transfer to the chapter about Atlantic forest to the chapter about eucalyptus & acacia forest. It can be like a world of little Australia in Brazil with a lot species of marsupials evolving from opossums. May be even "prehistoric Australia" with big marsupials, like Nimbadon huge bear-like prehistoric marsupial living on gigantic eucalyptus.

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May be this forest will be in state Rio Grande do Sul?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 21:44. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I don..


wovoka пишет:

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I don't even know whom to choose: Ctenomys torquatus or Blarinomys breviceps. Better you decide, you are the specialist in rodents and this is your native land & you know everything about this region, unlike me.


Blarinomys breviceps is better. This species already lives in the Atlantic forest and could evolve to the species that we talked about. It would also be nearly blind.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So what do you think, which variant is better:
1. Chondrogaster pachysporus or Chondrogaster angustisporus (but we don't know if they are edible and there is no information if at list one of them can make nowadays symbiosis with acacia, but taking into account that a lot of Mesophelliaceae can do it, may be it also will make it to neocene);
2. Tuber floridanum (we know that it is edible by different animals (in North America it's squirrels and wild pigs), but this mushroom is very malodorant & have probably a multimillion-year ecological connection with Carya illinoinensis and if this tree will survive in Atlantic forest to neocene this connection will stay very strong).


I think that the number 2 is better, since we know that its edible.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So it can be a separate chapter about eucalyptus forest in some region of Brazil. Or eucalyptus & acacia forest, because these trees often cultivate together because mycorrhizal symbionts of acacia (fungis and Rhizobias) enrich the soil with nitrogen.

So we can make monkeys living on eucalyptus and every species that we decided will live on Acacia mearnsii (including big eared opossum, ants, butterfly, moth, scarab beetle, mushroom, and may be pseudonecrolestes that could also eat that mushrooms) we can transfer to the chapter about Atlantic forest to the chapter about eucalyptus & acacia forest. It can be like a world of little Australia in Brazil with a lot species of marsupials evolving from opossums. May be even "prehistoric Australia" with big marsupials, like Nimbadon huge bear-like prehistoric marsupial living on gigantic eucalyptus.


I like this idea! The Atlantic forest is formed by different types of vegetation, so forests of acacia and eucalyptus could be part of it, as an effect that the humans left behind. I approve the idea of it being found in the Rio Grande do Sul, perhaps in lowland areas of Santa Catarina and a small part of Argentina (Misiones). Regarding the fauna, while I like the idea of a "little Australia", we can't forget that placentals will still be a greater part of the animals living here.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 22:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Bla..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Blarinomys breviceps is better. This species already lives in the Atlantic forest and could evolve to the species that we talked about. It would also be nearly blind.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

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I think that the number 2 is better, since we know that its edible.


Ok! Let it be.

JOrnitho пишет:

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I like this idea! The Atlantic forest is formed by different types of vegetation, so forests of acacia and eucalyptus could be part of it, as an effect that the humans left behind. I approve the idea of it being found in the Rio Grande do Sul, perhaps in lowland areas of Santa Catarina and a small part of Argentina (Misiones).


So the idea of Atlantic forest grow up to three different chapters : Diurnal Atlantic forest, Nocturnal Atlantic forest, South Eucalypt&Acacia Atlantic forest.

I think there will be not so much forest fires in this forest. Before humans came to Australia this continent was a continent of ancient forests with gigantic trees including gigantic eucalyptes. The humans destroyed this ecosystem and caused forest fires.

JOrnitho пишет:

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Regarding the fauna, while I like the idea of a "little Australia", we can't forget that placentals will still be a greater part of the animals living here.


Of course!

But Nimbadon like opossum can be possible living in the most ancient part of forest with gigantic eucalyptes: about 100 m.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 23:54. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But N..


wovoka пишет:

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But Nimbadon like opossum can be possible living in the most ancient part of forest with gigantic eucalyptes: about 100 m.


In this case, I think that it's possible. I also had a somewhat crazy idea. Since sloths are extinct, maybe there could be an opossum that evolved to eat leaves in their absence. Or at least only of eucalyptus. To not be in competition with monkeys, it could be nocturnal.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 10:04. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: In ..


JOrnitho пишет:

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In this case, I think that it's possible.


Good!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I also had a somewhat crazy idea. Since sloths are extinct, maybe there could be an opossum that evolved to eat leaves in their absence. Or at least only of eucalyptus. To not be in competition with monkeys, it could be nocturnal.


I like your crazy idea!

Let it be today the day of crazy ideas .
Marsupials have never had hooves, with the exception of one very rare species, Chaeropus ecaudatus. “His forelimbs ended in two functional fingers with hooves resembling the hooves of a pig or deer. On the hind limbs there was a fourth elongated finger with a relatively large claw in the form of a hoof, which helped the animal to actively move. The remaining fingers on the limbs were not very functional and intended primarily for hair care".
If we make such pseudoungulated nocturnal opossum in eucalyptus forest. It will be like Chaeropus ecaudatus with "hooves", long nose, big ears, big eyes, he will have the size of Tragulus, it will fill the niche of forest tragulus. It will feed exclusively on sweet fruits and especially berries, small edible mushrooms, will have a long nose and a long tongue, and will be able to feed on the nectar of various shrubs, pollinating them. Therefore, he will have very tasty, almost sweet meat, so many nocturnal predators, especially neocladosiktis, will hunt for him. Therefore, the pseudo-hoofed opossum will have to learn how to run very quickly over rough terrain, jumping over roots and dodging branches, that's what the "hooves" are for. Live in small groups. He will have a good sense of smell, keen hearing (for which long ears) and excellent night vision: to navigate enough starlight.

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лягушка
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 10:10. Заголовок: wovoka I think ther..


wovoka

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I think there will be not so much forest fires in this forest. Before humans came to Australia this continent was a continent of ancient forests with gigantic trees including gigantic eucalyptes. The humans destroyed this ecosystem and caused forest fires


But eucalyptes is a pyrophyte, it has adaptations to cause forest fires using essential oils, and also to avoid it. Their canopy grows better when its lower brances are burned, ash from burning other eucalyptes helps them to grow, and fruits are opening only after fire.
This thing definitely evolved before invasion of humans...

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 13:16. Заголовок: Not every species of..


Not every species of eucalyptus are pyrophytes, for example, gigantic Eucalýptus régnans hate fires.

https://homsk.com/martin/iskusstvo-vyzhzhennoy-zemli-zachem-avstraliyskie-aborigeny-regulyarno-ustraivali-masshtabnye-pozhary
Why the fires began?
Скрытый текст


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_of_Australia
"Fire is thought to have played a role in the development and distribution of fire-adapted species from the Late Pleistocene. An increase in charcoal in sediment around 38,000 years ago coincides with dates for the inhabitation of Australia by the Indigenous Australians and suggests that man-made fires, from practices like fire-stick farming, have played an important role in the establishment and maintenance of sclerophyll forest, especially on the east coast of Australia.[8] Adaptations to fire include lignotubers and epicormic buds in Eucalyptus and Banksia species that allow fast regeneration following fire. Some genera also exhibit serotiny, the release of seed only in response to heat and/or smoke. Xanthorrhoea grass trees and some species of orchids only flower after fire."


But you are wright, I found out: most forests of Gondwana extinct 2 mln years ago.

And when people came to Sahul the map of nature zones looked this way:
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 14:30. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Let i..


wovoka пишет:

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Let it be today the day of crazy ideas .
Marsupials have never had hooves, with the exception of one very rare species, Chaeropus ecaudatus. “His forelimbs ended in two functional fingers with hooves resembling the hooves of a pig or deer. On the hind limbs there was a fourth elongated finger with a relatively large claw in the form of a hoof, which helped the animal to actively move. The remaining fingers on the limbs were not very functional and intended primarily for hair care".
If we make such pseudoungulated nocturnal opossum in eucalyptus forest. It will be like Chaeropus ecaudatus with "hooves", long nose, big ears, big eyes, he will have the size of Tragulus, it will fill the niche of forest tragulus. It will feed exclusively on sweet fruits and especially berries, small edible mushrooms, will have a long nose and a long tongue, and will be able to feed on the nectar of various shrubs, pollinating them. Therefore, he will have very tasty, almost sweet meat, so many nocturnal predators, especially neocladosiktis, will hunt for him. Therefore, the pseudo-hoofed opossum will have to learn how to run very quickly over rough terrain, jumping over roots and dodging branches, that's what the "hooves" are for. Live in small groups. He will have a good sense of smell, keen hearing (for which long ears) and excellent night vision: to navigate enough starlight.


I like this idea! We could also have these Leptictidium-like that you sugested some time ago descending of Monodelphis opossums.
I was thinking about the marsupials that would replace the sloths and thought that they could have the appearance of robust tree kangaroos, with longer forelimbs that are used to grasp branches and a prehensile tail to help them not fall. A mix of sloth, kangaroo and opossum.

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
But eucalyptes is a pyrophyte, it has adaptations to cause forest fires using essential oils, and also to avoid it. Their canopy grows better when its lower



wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Not every species of eucalyptus are pyrophytes, for example, gigantic Eucalýptus régnans hate fires.


I really see no problem if this part of the Atlantic forest is prone to wildfires. This would make the chapter more interesting, because now the animals also need to adapt to survive this condition. We could even have the other plants of this region developing characteristics that allow them to survive the flames.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 18:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I l..


JOrnitho пишет:

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I like this idea!


Thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We could also have these Leptictidium-like that you sugested some time ago descending of Monodelphis opossums.


Very good!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I was thinking about the marsupials that would replace the sloths and thought that they could have the appearance of robust tree kangaroos, with longer forelimbs that are used to grasp branches and a prehensile tail to help them not fall. A mix of sloth, kangaroo and opossum.


I like it!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I really see no problem if this part of the Atlantic forest is prone to wildfires. This would make the chapter more interesting, because now the animals also need to adapt to survive this condition. We could even have the other plants of this region developing characteristics that allow them to survive the flames.


But if it often will be fires, we will not have gigantic 100 m eucalyptus. And then Rio Grande Do Sul, unlike Australia, is not arid, but rather humid region (1304 mm of precipitation per year). So fires, if they occur, will only occur in very dry years.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 18:40. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But i..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But if it often will be fires, we will not have gigantic 100 m eucalyptus. And then Rio Grande Do Sul, unlike Australia, is not arid, but rather humid region (1304 mm of precipitation per year). So fires, if they occur, will only occur in very dry years.


Yes, these eucalyptus would not need to be that much adapted to wildfires in such region. However, the chapter could happen during a very dry period, with a fire starting.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 21:46. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: How..


JOrnitho пишет:

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However, the chapter could happen during a very dry period, with a fire starting.


Yes, there is no neocene chapter about forest fire. It will be interesting part of the plot!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 22:50. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Yes, ..


wovoka пишет:

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Yes, there is no neocene chapter about forest fire. It will be interesting part of the plot!


Yes! We should start doing a bestiary list for this chapter.
Another animal that could live in these forests is a descendant of the guineafowl. It could feed on the ground, forming small flocks. They could have the size of a turkey and the males could have evolved colorful skin in the face.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 00:04. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Ano..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Another animal that could live in these forests is a descendant of the guineafowl. It could feed on the ground, forming small flocks. They could have the size of a turkey and the males could have evolved colorful skin in the face.


Very good idea!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Yes! We should start doing a bestiary list for this chapter.



Ok! Let's do the bestiary:

Eucalyptus & Acacia forest:
1. Eucalyptus grandis (in description we wright that its mycorrhizal fungi is descendent of Chondrogaster pachysporus).
2. Acacia mearnsii
3. Tuber floridanum - mycorrhizal fungi of acacia
4. Camponotus sericeiventris - the ants that will live in acacia, now they are diurnal but they can became nocturnal.
5. Strymon mulucha - the canterpillar that will make sweet excudat for ants.
6. Morpheis xylotribus - wood moth eating acacia wood.
7. Diloboderus abderus - scarab beetles which larvas eating acacia wood.
8. Tremella fuciformis - edible mushroom that will grow on old trees of the forest.
9. Pseudonecrolestes - descendent of Blarinomys breviceps that could eat edible roots, truffles, plant tubers, bulbs, worms, underground larvae.
10. Big eared opossum - something like nocturnal hybrid of Petauroides volans (by shape of body especially with a short pretty muzzle and large furry ears, very long fluffy tail but without flying membranes) and Spilocuscus maculatus (by the color with the same huge ginger spots on white fur)". It will eat acacia's gum, leaves, nitrogen rich pollen from flowers, seeds, fungi, insects hiding under bark: ants, larvas of beetles and canterpillars of wood moths and butterflies (especially if this canterpillars have sweet exudates which will eat ants). it will have long sticky tongue to eat insects and sharp claws to peel off the bark. So he will help to pollinate the tree, spread tree seeds and spores of endomycorrhizal fungi, protect the tree from pests.
11. Pseudonimbadon - huge bear-like opossum living on gigantic eucalyptus.
12. Pseudounguleted nocturnal opossum - opossum like Chaeropus ecaudatus with forelimbs ended in two functional fingers with hooves resembling the hooves of a pig or deer. On the hind limbs it will have a fourth elongated finger with a relatively large claw in the form of a hoof, which helped the animal to actively move. The remaining fingers on the limbs were not very functional and intended primarily for hair care.
It will have long nose, big ears, big eyes, he will have the size of Tragulus, it will fill the niche of forest tragulus. It will feed exclusively on sweet fruits and especially berries, small edible mushrooms, will have a long nose and a long tongue, and will be able to feed on the nectar of various shrubs, pollinating them. Therefore, he will have very tasty, almost sweet meat, so many nocturnal predators, especially neocladosiktis, will hunt for him. Therefore, the pseudo-hoofed opossum will have to learn how to run very quickly over rough terrain, jumping over roots and dodging branches, that's what the "hooves" are for. Live in small groups. He will have a good sense of smell, keen hearing (for which long ears) and excellent night vision: to navigate enough starlight.
13. Opossum like robust tree kangaroos, with longer forelimbs that are used to grasp branches and a prehensile tail to help them not fall. A mix of sloth, kangaroo and opossum.
14. Leptictidium-like opossum descending of Monodelphis opossums.
15. Monkeys eating leaves of eucalyptus (what monkeys???).
16. Descendant of the guineafowl. It could feed on the ground, forming small flocks. They could have the size of a turkey and the males could have evolved colorful skin in the face.

We can make still maximum three more species.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 04:06. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: 15. M..


wovoka пишет:

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15. Monkeys eating leaves of eucalyptus (what monkeys???).


Do you think that the Alouatta could survive? Or we should have it being descendant of a capuchin monkey?

wovoka пишет:

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We can make still maximum three more species.


The chapter needs a terrestrial predator. We could fill one of these three with a large one.

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