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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.03.22 17:24. Заголовок: Galliformes and other animals for South America (продолжение)


Hello! I'm back with ideas for some new species for South America. I found in my computer an archive with some ideas for fauna and flora that I had some time ago and decided to show there to ask your opinion about them. The first is about a descendant of the domestic chicken.

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I also have in this archive some names for possible species that I never developed bayond some few facts. Maybe someone could help me make their descriptions.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 13:27. Заголовок: There is also the Ca..


There is also the Catatumbo Delta, most of the descendants of freshwater species would live in this area.

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лягушка
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 11:35. Заголовок: wovoka If Macairobo..


wovoka
If Macairobo woll become a gulf, I think it'll be inhabited by Caribbean fauna - ariid catfish and many species livebearers

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 12:22. Заголовок: But it doesn't m..


But it doesn't mean that we can try to evolve some local species, adapted over millions of years to life not in fresh lake water, but in oceanic salt water, gradually changing along with the entire lake ecosystem.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 15:31. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But i..


wovoka пишет:

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But it doesn't mean that we can try to evolve some local species, adapted over millions of years to life not in fresh lake water, but in oceanic salt water, gradually changing along with the entire lake ecosystem.


We could have one of the local schooling fishes evolving to live in freshwater.
Also, I saw the discussion about the bear-like mongoose in the Andes and thought if it would be interesting of it having a hyena-like appearance. It would be sort of an Andean "hyena".

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 13:30. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: arii..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
ariid catfish and many species livebearers


I think that the ariid catfishes could become a predator, with a similar appearance to that of a shark.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 15:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that the ariid catfishes could become a predator, with a similar appearance to that of a shark.


Yes, i think so too.

Also we can use in chapter the bentophag Geophagus steindachneri from Maracaibo lake, it will be the good food for Yara.
But we should come up with it some new interesting characteristics

And I like the JOrnitho's idea of the fish that could jump to catch birds while they fly.
In Maracaibo gulf it can be Ctenolucius hujeta. Also this fish can became oceanic fish and catch fish-eating bats while they fly in Caribbean sea.

And also I like the idea of Paracheirodon axelrodi that could be schooling fishes with males being more colorful than the females. They also can became oceanic fish that replace the lanternfishes, that be food for marine fish-eating bats as well as Лягушка's glowing squids.

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
many species livebearers


Yes these fishes could occupy a lot of different econiches.
For example we can take Poecilia latipinna that came get to the Gulf from Caribbean sea.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 16:34. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Also ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Also we can use in chapter the bentophag Geophagus steindachneri from Maracaibo lake, it will be the good food for Yara.
But we should come up with it some new interesting characteristics


We could develop the male's protuberance in the head to become a structure used by them in disputes for the females. They could also have strong jaws to crush crabs and shellfishes.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Also this fish can became oceanic fish and catch fish-eating bats while they fly in Caribbean sea.


This a good idea. They could also hunt flying fish this way, if these animals still exist in the Neocene.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
They also can became oceanic fish that replace the lanternfishes, that be food for marine fish-eating bats as well as Лягушка's glowing squids.


I like this idea. They can form large schools during a certain time of the year to reproduce near coastal areas. Several animals could be attracted by them, bats, sea birds, squids and large fishes. Do you think that they would do diurnal vertical migration?
By the way, I had an idea for a large fish (10-15 m) being analogue to the humpback whale, feeding of crustaceans and small fish by gulping them. What do you think of it? Do you have an idea for its ancestor?

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Yes these fishes could occupy a lot of different econiches.
For example we can take Poecilia latipinna that came get to the Gulf from Caribbean sea.


It could be another schooling species.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 19:05. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: We ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We could develop the male's protuberance in the head to become a structure used by them in disputes for the females. They could also have strong jaws to crush crabs and shellfishes.


Yes, cool idea!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
They could also hunt flying fish this way, if these animals still exist in the Neocene.


I think they extinct to neocene after plankton catastrophe, because the Exocoetidae feed mainly on plankton. That's why we should make new flying fish species for Carebbean sea. Who will be the ancestor?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It could be another schooling species.


Yes.

I mean that Paracheirodon axelrodi will become not only schooling but also glowing like laternfish in the night on the water surface. But we need to understand what physiological changes should occur in their organisms.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
By the way, I had an idea for a large fish (10-15 m) being analogue to the humpback whale, feeding of crustaceans and small fish by gulping them. What do you think of it? Do you have an idea for its ancestor?


There is already such a fish: dreadnought-fish (Pseudoleedsichthys vastus) https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1680880673501-00000177-000-10001-0#013 in Russian

So what fishes we at last decided to include in the chapter about Maracaibo gulf.

As I understand:
1. ariid catfish - a predator from Caribbean sea, with a similar appearance to that of a shark.
2. bentophag Geophagus steindachneri (endemic of Maracaibo lake), it will be the good food for Yara (with developed the male's protuberance in the head to become a structure used by them in disputes for the females. They could also have strong jaws to crush crabs and shellfishes).
3. Ctenolucius hujeta (endemic of Maracaibo lake) the fish that could jump to catch birds while they fly, it also will became oceanic fish and catch fish-eating bats and marine birds while they fly in Caribbean sea.
4. Paracheirodon axelrodi (the fish from Orinoco river) that became oceanic schooling fish (and then get to the gulf) with males being more colorful than the females, they also will became oceanic glowing fishes that replace the lanternfishes, that be food for marine fish-eating bats and marine birds.
5. Poecilia latipinna - schooling marine species from Caribbean sea (we can make some subspecies (as more as you wish ) for the gulf with different econiches: herbivores, planktivores, small and medium predators).

Any other ideas? Or this is enough?

The fishes you have earlier described could be used in the future chapter about the delta of Orinoco.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Also, I saw the discussion about the bear-like mongoose in the Andes and thought if it would be interesting of it having a hyena-like appearance. It would be sort of an Andean "hyena".


I just want to make the biggest oppossum as possible, and this is the only place in South America to make it. And hyena-like opossum (Phascohyaena tigrina) is alredy made for the deserts of North America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 20:07. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I thi..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I think they extinct to neocene after plankton catastrophe, because the Exocoetidae feed mainly on plankton. That's why we should make new flying fish species for Carebbean sea. Who will be the ancestor?


What do you think if we make one of descendants of the Poecilia latipinna as the new flying fishes? This could suit for the chapter of bats and we could make its "wings" different from the Holocene flying fish.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
There is already such a fish: dreadnought-fish (Pseudoleedsichthys vastus) https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1680880673501-00000177-000-10001-0#013 in Russian


I'm aware of it. I only thought that while this species feeds on plankton, there could be another that feed on small schooling fishes and sometimes crustaceans. It would be like how there is several species of whale in the Holocene and they have different niches. For example, humpback whales are generalists, feeding of fish and krill, while gray whales feed of benthic invertebrates. Another large fish could exist, but with a different niche.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Any other ideas? Or this is enough?


I think that it's enough. I'm not an expert in fish, but I'll try to write the descriptions.wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I just want to make the biggest oppossum as possible, and this is the only place in South America to make it. And hyena-like opossum (Phascohyaena tigrina) is alredy made for the deserts of North America.


I meant a hyena-like mongoose, but we can have the bear-like opossum in its place. Maybe it could appear in a chapter about the migration of Andean antelope, a descendant of goats living in the Altiplano that I proposed some time ago.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 21:37. Заголовок: wovoka ariid catfish..


wovoka

 цитата:
ariid catfish


Good idea!

 цитата:
Geophagus steindachneri


Durophagous cichlid will be good species of fish. I think it should evolve very strong jaws with big blunt tooth, or tetraodontiform-like "beak".

 цитата:
Ctenolucius hujeta


I think this fish is exctinct in Neocene, if pyrrhulinas were able to become pikes.

 цитата:
Paracheirodon axelrodi as lanternfish


What? Cardinal tetras live in southern part of Amazon basin, an dhey don't glow. Their blue stripes are jnly opalescent and stop shimmering when light switches off.

 цитата:
Poecilia latipinna


I described Salinopoecilia affinis - schooling livebearer of Caribbean Sea. I think thet you should use it.
JOrnitho

 цитата:
What do you think if we make one of descendants of the Poecilia latipinna as the new flying fishes? This could suit for the chapter of bats and we could make its "wings" different from the Holocene flying fish.


We alrready hawe gliding livebearers(Thoracilia volans) into "Pirates of Caribbean sea" chapter.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 21:53. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: What..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
What? Cardinal tetras live in southern part of Amazon basin, an dhey don't glow. Their blue stripes are jnly opalescent and stop shimmering when light switches off.


Yeah, descendants of the cardinal tetra (if they even evolve to live in salt water) would be more like coastal schooling fishes. Similar to tangs, royal grammas and angelfish.

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
I described Salinopoecilia affinis - schooling livebearer of Caribbean Sea. I think thet you should use it.


Can I see the description? Do you think that we could have a species of livebearer doing vertical movements? Staying in deep waters during the day and going close to the surface during the night, following their planktonic prey. The firefly squids would follow them during it.

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
We alrready hawe gliding livebearers(Thoracilia volans) into "Pirates of Caribbean sea" chapter.


Perfect, we can mention it in the chapter. Perhaps we could even make another species of the same genus.
Also, is there a species that fill the tuna's niche of fast predator?

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 22:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Wha..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think if we make one of descendants of the Poecilia latipinna as the new flying fishes? This could suit for the chapter of bats and we could make its "wings" different from the Holocene flying fish.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I'm aware of it. I only thought that while this species feeds on plankton, there could be another that feed on small schooling fishes and sometimes crustaceans. It would be like how there is several species of whale in the Holocene and they have different niches. For example, humpback whales are generalists, feeding of fish and krill, while gray whales feed of benthic invertebrates. Another large fish could exist, but with a different niche.


May be it could be. And if we have a tradition to use names of ships for such big fishes galleon-fish, dreadnought-fish. Let it be frigate-fish But we discussed that physiologically fish couldn't be more then 16,5 m, it can be a lit bit bigger but it would be too slow and clumsy.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that it's enough. I'm not an expert in fish, but I'll try to write the descriptions.


Ok, thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I meant a hyena-like mongoose, but we can have the bear-like opossum in its place. Maybe it could appear in a chapter about the migration of Andean antelope, a descendant of goats living in the Altiplano that I proposed some time ago.


I remember about this idea. But I just wanted to combine in one place the two largest (bear-likes) representatives of these two competing in neocene South America families: Didelphidae and Herpestidae. Bear-like mongoose can be very fast and hardy. Hyena-like mongoose also can be settled in some South American desert.

I just think we also need some plants in the chapter about Maracaibo gulf.
One of them will be Sea spinach (Thalassolatucca crystallophylla) http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/2pircarb.htm

and second Ocumo - Xanthosoma sagittifolium - with edible leaves, stems and tubers. Huge thickets of this plant will grow around the entire lake and all local herbivores will come to eat it, especially barocavias and cabiai-pyinko. Ocumo is the name of this plant in Panare language, which belongs to the Carib family.




JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think if we make one of descendants of the Poecilia latipinna as the new flying fishes? This could suit for the chapter of bats and we could make its "wings" different from the Holocene flying fish.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I'm aware of it. I only thought that while this species feeds on plankton, there could be another that feed on small schooling fishes and sometimes crustaceans. It would be like how there is several species of whale in the Holocene and they have different niches. For example, humpback whales are generalists, feeding of fish and krill, while gray whales feed of benthic invertebrates. Another large fish could exist, but with a different niche.


May be it could be. And if we have a tradition to use names of ships for such big fishes galleon-fish, dreadnought-fish. Let it be frigate-fish But we discussed that physiologically fish couldn't be more then 16,5 m, it can be a lit bit bigger but it would be too slow and clumsy.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that it's enough. I'm not an expert in fish, but I'll try to write the descriptions.


Ok, thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I meant a hyena-like mongoose, but we can have the bear-like opossum in its place. Maybe it could appear in a chapter about the migration of Andean antelope, a descendant of goats living in the Altiplano that I proposed some time ago.


I remember about this idea. But I just wanted to combine in one place the two largest (bear-likes) representatives of these two competing in neocene South America families: Didelphidae and Herpestidae. Bear-like mongoose can be very fast and hardy. Hyena-like mongoose also can be settled in some South American desert.

I just think we also need some plants in the chapter about Maracaibo gulf.
One of them will be Sea spinach (Thalassolatucca crystallophylla) http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/2pircarb.htm

and second Ocumo - Xanthosoma sagittifolium - with edible leaves, stems and tubers. Huge thickets of this plant will grow around the entire lake and all local herbivores will come to eat it, especially barocavias and cabiai-pyinko. Ocumo is the name of this plant in Panare language, which belongs to the Carib family.




Лягушка, don't forget this two fishes: Geophagus steindachneri and Ctenolucius hujeta evolved very long time in a separate water reservoir, indipendently of the ichthyofauna of the Caribbean Sea. Therefore, they will be able to survive and, I think, resist invasive species from the see. And I like the characteristics that JOrnitho wants to develop in them. The first gnawing on crabs and shellfish and fighting with it's "horn"; the second catch flying birds in a throw. Therefore, we can leave them in the chapter about the Gulf of Maracaibo. I think Ctenolucius hujeta will be bigger then pyrrhulinas-pikes and could compete with them in the sea: therefore he has absolutely different econich: catching flying birds that are hunting on schooling small fishes.

Although... it is absolutely not important from whom to derive the forms necessary for the chapter.

If Durophagous cichlid could became the absolutely the same form as we wanted from Geophagus steindachneri, so let it be.
If it will be a species of pikes-like pyrrhulinas that will be able to catch flying birds in the throw, so let it be.
If your schooling fish Salinopoecilia affinis will be able to make some subspecies in the gulf with different econiches: herbivores, planktivores, small and medium predators, so let it be.

Schooling cardinal tetras also is gould idea.

And with ariid catfish this is really enough for the chapter.

But i need not only glowing squid, I need the fish that could replace laternfish in Caribbean sea for my fisheating bats. But who can be the ansector?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.04.23 23:48. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be it could be. And if we have a tradition to use names of ships for such big fishes galleon-fish, dreadnought-fish. Let it be frigate-fish But we discussed that physiologically fish couldn't be more then 16,5 m, it can be a lit bit bigger but it would be too slow and clumsy.


I like this name! I thought that their size would be 15 m at maximum, so they'll be very slow. This is why I think that feeding like the gray whale would be better for it, since the prey will stay in the mud. It would scoop up sediments from the sea floor in coastal areas. Do you think that it’s mouth could have some type of specialization?
This species could feed in the Artic and Antartic, while reproducing in warm waters, such as the Caribbean sea and Gulf of Mexico. Maybe their reproduction could appear in the bat chapter?
Another important question is, who could be its ancestor?

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I just think we also need some plants in the chapter about Maracaibo gulf.
One of them will be Sea spinach (Thalassolatucca crystallophylla) http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/2pircarb.htm

and second Ocumo - Xanthosoma sagittifolium - with edible leaves, stems and tubers. Huge thickets of this plant will grow around the entire lake and all local herbivores will come to eat it, especially barocavias and cabiai-pyinko. Ocumo is the name of this plant in Panare language, which belongs to the Carib family.


We could have some water flowers in the Catatumbo Delta.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 04:35. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Ano..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Another important question is, who could be its ancestor?


Лягушка is specialist in fishes. Maybe he can answer?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We could have some water flowers in the Catatumbo Delta.


It can be usual Nymphaea alba invasive from Europe but it can evolve to the form of Victoria amazonica (we will call it Mureru - waterlily in Carib).




I have chosen the names of fishes
1. Typanake-tunu (Typanake means catfish, tunu means shark in carib)

2. Wentameke-arawana (in carib language this name means “in eating habits similar to fish arawana)

Arawana (Osteoglossum bicirrhosum) it is a fish also called 'water monkey' because of its ability to jump out of the water and capture its prey. It usually swims near the water surface waiting for potential prey. Although specimens have been found with the remains of birds, bats, mice, and snakes in their stomachs, its main diet consists of snails, crustaceans (such as crabs), insects (such as beetles), spiders, smaller fish, and other animals that float on the water surface, which its drawbridge-like mouth is exclusively adapted for feeding on.
It will be the name of bird and bat catching fish from Maracaibo Gulf and Caribbean sea from family: Predatory live-bearers (Rapaciliidae) relative to "Pike live-bearer (Sphyraenesia ferox)" from chapter http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/2pircarb.htm.

3. Ari-Tukunare (in carib language Ari means shellfish and Tukunare is name of Cichla ocellaris (Cichlidae)) by it’s form it’s a little bit similar to Geophagus steindachneri. Cichla ocellaris will be the ansector of this species.
Ari-Tukunare will be the name of Лягушка's "Durophagous cichlid" that will evolve very strong jaws with big blunt tooth and whith developed the male's protuberance in the head to become a structure used by them in disputes for the females (like we want do with Geophagus steindachneri).

4. The descendents of Лягушка's schooling Salinopoecilia marinis https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1680916744566-00000177-000-10001-0#111 that get into the gulf will call Sapelko (it is carib name of Poecilia parae, maybe it will be the ansector of Salinopoecilia marinis)
I think that fishes will occupy a lot of nishes and have several subspecies:
A: Itupu-sapelko herbivores fish (itupu - grass in Carib)
B: Amòiky-sapelko - planktonvorus fish (Amòiky means "collect many small objects" in Carib )
C: Ìmempìkiwoto-sapelko small fish eating (Ìmempìki – very small; woto - the name of any fish)
D: woto-sapelko medium fish eating
E: pàporo-sapelko omnivores fish (pàporo - means "everything" in Carib)
F: mari-sapelko snails eating fish (mari - snail)

Kariwiri - the Carib name off unknown fish from the Characidae family, this name we will give to scooling cardinal tetra.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 15:21. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: It ca..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
It can be usual Nymphaea alba invasive from Europe but it can evolve to the form of Victoria amazonica (we will call it Mureru - waterlily in Carib).


Yes! It could have a large and colorful flowers. What do yo think of it being pink with reddish tips? Perhaps one of the local fish could lay its eggs in these plants.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I have chosen the names of fishes


I like these fishes! I work on descriptions for them.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 17:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Yes..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Yes! It could have a large and colorful flowers. What do yo think of it being pink with reddish tips? Perhaps one of the local fish could lay its eggs in these plants.



Good ideas!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like these fishes! I work on descriptions for them.


Ok, thank you!

I'm working on descriptions of two turtles.

And don't forget about sea opossum: descendant of Didelphis marsupialis, which will become aquatic like Chironectes minimus (but living in salt water) and snakes-eating, and we call him Parana-aware (sea opossum in carib language), but he will live only in the gulf Maracaibo.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 19:07. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: And d..


wovoka пишет:

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And don't forget about sea opossum: descendant of Didelphis marsupialis, which will become aquatic like Chironectes minimus (but living in salt water) and snakes-eating, and we call him Parana-aware (sea opossum in carib language), but he will live only in the gulf Maracaibo.


Ok! I'll also work on it.

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медведь





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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 20:51. Заголовок: Perhaps one of the l..



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Perhaps one of the local fish could lay its eggs in these plants.


I have not heard about fish laying their eggs only on a particular species of plant.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 21:54. Заголовок: медведь пишет: I ha..


медведь пишет:

 цитата:
I have not heard about fish laying their eggs only on a particular species of plant.


Then we should come up with with specific form of symbiosis between the plant and the fish. Оффтоп: May be it is a absolutely crazy idea but may be fish fry will be a kind of pollinators of the flowers. Or we should find another form of symbiosis.

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 23:16. Заголовок: I've found the f..


I've found the form of symbiosis.

In the flowers of waterlily will be living female of local mantis the oviposit there and in the same time hunting on the bees that pollinating the flowers. The fish will be eating mantis before spawning and fish fry will eat mantis eggs. The mantis female will be very productive to oviposit as more eggs, then at list several eggs stay uneaten by fry.

The ancestor of mantis will be Stagmatoptera septentrionalis or may be better Choeradodis rhombicollis (but it's live far from Maracaibo lake, but may be it will migrate to that region).

But it will look like Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii or even more beautiful like a water lily petal.

Parare - mantid in Carib language.
Wano - melipona bee in Carib language. (ancestor will be Melipona favosa) In arawak language Melipona favosa is called Maba what is translated honey

May be I'll describe the bee.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.04.23 23:54. Заголовок: медведь пишет: I ha..


медведь пишет:

 цитата:
I have not heard about fish laying their eggs only on a particular species of plant.



wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Then we should come up with with specific form of symbiosis between the plant and the fish. Оффтоп: May be it is a absolutely crazy idea but may be fish fry will be a kind of pollinators of the flowers. Or we should find another form of symbiosis.


I meant that this species could lay its eggs in different water plants, including the water lily. But I like the symbiosis idea.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
In the flowers of waterlily will be living female of local mantis the oviposit there and in the same time hunting on the bees that pollinating the flowers. The fish will be eating mantis before spawning and fish fry will eat mantis eggs. The mantis female will be very productive to oviposit as more eggs, then at list several eggs stay uneaten by fry.


It could eat butterflies too. Such situation makes me think that this fish could be the archer fish-like ciclid that I proposed some days ago. They could hit the mantis hiding in the lily with sprays of water.
By this point, I think that this could be worthy of a separate chapter

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.04.23 02:02. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: By ..


JOrnitho пишет:

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By this point, I think that this could be worthy of a separate chapter


I'm afraid that we are so carried away by the process of inventing new animals that have been making so many species for Maracaibo Gulf that we already need to separate it into two chapters and I propose such names of the chapters:
1. "Maracaibo: The lake that become a gulf"
2. "Maracaibo: Catatumbo lightning"

So we can describe also a mantis, a bee, a butterfly and archer fish-like ciclid (the ancestor will be Andinoacara pulcher very beautiful local fish with local name Acara, that mean stream, and will name it Apeina - what means stream in carib language).

Paramparan - any butterfly in carib language. Tomorrow I'll choose the most beautiful local butterfly for the ancestor.

And then we should divide the described species on two interrelated chapters.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.04.23 02:46. Заголовок: As far as I understa..


As far as I understand butterflies don't pollinate waterlilies and the biggest waterlilia Victoria Amazonica is pollinated by beetles Cyclocephala hardyi https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2803590/

so i don't know if we need to describe a butterfly

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.04.23 13:51. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I'..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I'm afraid that we are so carried away by the process of inventing new animals that have been making so many species for Maracaibo Gulf that we already need to separate it into two chapters and I propose such names of the chapters:
1. "Maracaibo: The lake that become a gulf"
2. "Maracaibo: Catatumbo lightning"


I like these names.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So we can describe also a mantis, a bee, a butterfly and archer fish-like ciclid (the ancestor will be Andinoacara pulcher very beautiful local fish with local name Acara, that mean stream, and will name it Apeina - what means stream in carib language).


This archer fish could also have species living in other rivers, perhaps even in the Amazon. The igapó could be a good place for them.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
so i don't know if we need to describe a butterfly


We could describe a beetle, perhaps a descendant of the Cyclocephala hardyi that evolved to feed in the nectar of water lilies.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.04.23 19:06. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: We ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We could describe a beetle, perhaps a descendant of the Cyclocephala hardyi that evolved to feed in the nectar of water lilies.


The name of this beetle in Carib Mureru tano.
But I think he will have some kind of device to protect against mantis.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
This archer fish could also have species living in other rivers, perhaps even in the Amazon. The igapó could be a good place for them.


Yes it can get to Amazon river from Orinoco Rio.


 цитата:
The igapó could be a good place for them.


Oh my God! You want to make a chapter about the igapos?
We can't describe all Neocene South America

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.04.23 21:14. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Oh my..


wovoka пишет:

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Oh my God! You want to make a chapter about the igapos?


No! I mean that we could add species in the description that live in these areas.
But now you are giving me ideas!

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.04.23 21:29. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But I..


wovoka пишет:

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But I think he will have some kind of device to protect against mantis.


Maybe it has some defense in the exoskeleton to protect against the mantis? Some type of hard structure. It would make them terrible fliers.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.04.23 22:21. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: May..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Maybe it has some defense in the exoskeleton to protect against the mantis? Some type of hard structure. It would make them terrible fliers.



There is such an ant Acromyrmex echinatior - it has something like knight metal armor - biomineral exoskeleton with CaMg(CO3)2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19566-3
May be the beetle will use something like that.

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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.04.23 03:05. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: There..


wovoka пишет:

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There is such an ant Acromyrmex echinatior - it has something like knight metal armor - biomineral exoskeleton with CaMg(CO3)2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19566-3
May be the beetle will use something like that.


Perhaps. A good name for it could be the Knight beetle.
Another animal that could appear there in this chapter is a descendant of the Jacana jacana.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 01:13. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: A g..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
A good name for it could be the Knight beetle.


I think, we can give him double name Mureru tano, or Knight beetle.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Another animal that could appear there in this chapter is a descendant of the Jacana jacana.


Yes it could. The name in carib language Amapejàu

But let's count, how many species for region we have already described or decided to describe.

Mammals:
1. Yara - water descendent of tayra. - described
2. Awaruwape - semiaquatic swimming in salt sea water jaguar-like descendent of ocelot - described
3. Tapiraiaura - the ambulocetus-like descendant of the Procyon cancrivorus - described
3. Cabiai-pyinko - peccary-like descendent of brazilian guinea pig - described
4. Meku - semiaquatic collective descendent of Humboldt's white-fronted capuchin (Cebus albifrons) (Meku is Caribbean name of other capuchin monkey Cebus apella: brown capuchin, i think that neocene water monkeys will be more like brown capuchin wih the same color and form of body) - described
5. Parana-aware - descendant of Didelphis marsupialis, which will become aquatic like Chironectes minimus (but living in salt water) and snakes-eating (the name means sea opossum in carib language), but he will live only in the gulf Maracaibo. - undescribed

Birds
6. Karara - flightless descendent of giant darter (Anhinga) (in Carib language karara means and darter, and cormorant). described
7. Karapisuru - descendent of Porphyrula martinica (carib name of this bird) - described
8. Sansaparu - descendent of Rallus longirostris: clapper rail - described
9. Kàwiriri - descendent of Dendrocygna autumnalis (Kàwiriri - is the name of this duck in carib language). - described
10. Teitei - descendant of Vanellus chilensis (the name of this bird in wayuu language) - described
11. Warulapai - big predator bird catching big fish, water snakes, little turtles, water birds and also cubs of Yaras, Algocetuses, Tapiraiaura, Meku, Cabiai-pyinko. Will be descendant of Parabuteo unicinctus (Warulapai - means big predator bird in wayuu language). - described
12. Kotooro - will be descendant of Pionus menstruus eating crabs and shellfish in the mangroves (Kotooro - means parrot in wayuu language). - described
13. Katipirüin - descendent of Pyrocephalus obscurus (the name in wayuu language) - it will be catching flies, mosquitoes and different parasites on the bodies of barocavias and Cabiai-pyinko. - described
14. Kaarai - descendent of Tachybaptus dominicus (the name of any water bird species in Wayuu language (language of Guajiro Indians that living on the banks of Maracaibo lake) - described
15. Ai-Karala - descendent of Podilymbus podiceps. It would hunt in the Maracaibo gulf during the night.(name means night bird in in wayuu language) - described
16. Amapejàu - descendant of the Jacana jacana (the name in carib language). -undescribed
17. Cyculi - descendent of sungrebe (Heliornis fulica) (Cyculi - is the name of the bird in Guahibo language) - may be will describe , lets give it interesting niche in the delta of Catatumbo.


Reptiles
18. Sakompo - giant sea water snake analogue of Anaconda (carib name of Boidae family) - described
19. Asakaimo - rattlesnake [Crotalus durissus) - described
20. Arakaka - Guiana wood turtle, scorpion mud turtle, galap (Rhinoclemmys punctularia) - sometimes found in Lake Maracaibo, we can give this name arakaka to Rhinoclemmys diademata (the endemic of Maracaibo) -undescribed (I'll describe)
21. Tarekaja - sea turtle -undescribed (I'll describe)

Fishes
22. Typanake-tunu (Typanake means catfish, tunu means shark in carib) -undescribed
23. Wentameke-arawana (in carib language this name means “in eating habits similar to fish arawana) -undescribed
Скрытый текст

24. Ari-Tukunare (in carib language Ari means shellfish and Tukunare is name of Cichla ocellaris (Cichlidae)) by it’s form it’s a little bit similar to Geophagus steindachneri. Cichla ocellaris will be the ansector of this species. -undescribed
Скрытый текст

25. The descendents of Лягушка's schooling Salinopoecilia marinis https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1680916744566-00000177-000-10001-0#111 that get into the gulf will call Sapelko (it is carib name of Poecilia parae, maybe it will be the ansector of Salinopoecilia marinis)
I think that fishes will occupy a lot of nishes and have several subspecies:
A: Itupu-sapelko herbivores fish (itupu - grass in Carib)
B: Amòiky-sapelko - planktonvorus fish (Amòiky means "collect many small objects" in Carib )
C: Ìmempìkiwoto-sapelko small fish eating (Ìmempìki – very small; woto - the name of any fish)
D: woto-sapelko medium fish eating
E: pàporo-sapelko omnivores fish (pàporo - means "everything" in Carib)
F: mari-sapelko snails eating fish (mari - snail)
all subspecies undescribed

25. Kariwiri - the Carib name off unknown fish from the Characidae family, this name we will give to scooling cardinal tetra. undescribed
26. Apeina - (what means stream in carib language) archer fish-like ciclid (the ancestor will be Andinoacara pulcher very beautiful local fish with local name Acara, that mean stream) undescribed

Invertebrates
27. Parare - mantid in Carib language. undescribed
Скрытый текст

28. Maba - in arawak language called Melipona favosa what is translated honey will pollinate Mureru undescribed (I will describe)
29. Mureru tano, or Knight beetle. - the biggest waterlilia Victoria Amazonica is pollinated by beetles Cyclocephala hardyi, will pollinate Mureru https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2803590/ and will have exosceleton like an ant Acromyrmex echinatior - it has something like knight metal armor - biomineral exoskeleton with CaMg(CO3)2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19566-3
30. Kusa - descendant of blue crab (Ucides cordatus) described


Plants
31. Ocumo - Xanthosoma sagittifolium - with edible leaves, stems and tubers. Huge thickets of this plant will grow around the entire lake and all local herbivores will come to eat it, especially barocavias and cabiai-pyinko. Ocumo is the name of this plant in Panare language, which belongs to the Carib family. - undescribed
32. Mureru - waterlily in Carib, descendant usual Nymphaea alba invasive from Europe but it can evolve to the form of Victoria amazonica.

I think that's enough!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 04:02. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Cycul..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Cyculi


Since we are going to make a chapter about the Catatumbo Delta, I think that the sungrebe could fit on this one. What do you think?
I made the description of the parana-aware. The fishes are going to be the next.

Parana-aware, or Sea opossum (Thalassodelphis agilis)
Order:Didelphimorpha
Family:Didelphidae
Habitat: Maracaibo Gulf and nearby brackish areas
The human actions during the Holocene caused the extinction of all the species of otters. The niche left by them was filled by several different species that weren’t related to the subfamily Lutrinae. Among those that benefited with their disappearance was the common opossum (Didelphis marsupialis), which gave rise to the semi-aquatic Parana-aware. This animal can be considered a case of convergent evolution. In the Holocene, the water opossum (Chironectes minimus), also known as the yapok, was also an aquatic marsupial with similar characteristics that allowed it to survive in the water. The Parana-aware is endemic to Maracaibo Gulf. Its name is formed by two words of the Carib language: Parana (sea) and aware (opossum).

The body of the Parana-aware is long, with 80 to 115 cm of length and their tails have 40 to 60 cm of length. They have short legs, a muscular short neck, a large head with an elongated snout. Its body is broadest at the hips and long black whiskers that are used to detect prey in turbid waters. It has a short, dense fur which is water-repellent. The upperparts are dark gray, while the underparts are light buff. Differently from its ancestor, the ears are short. Their feet are webbed, and together with their tail, they are used to propulsion through water. As a reflection of their aquatic lifestyle, this species developed transparent nictitating membranes to protect their eyes while swimming and nostrils and ears capable of being closed. Another characteristic that this animal developed to survive in the salt water is large kidneys. Its enable the marsupial to derive fresh water from sea water and excrete concentrated urine. They rest in dens excavated in shores and sandbanks above the tide level. Usually the male is larger than the female and both sexes have a well developed marsupium (the pouch), in the male this structure covers their genitalia, this way helping in their streamlining.

They can eat fishes, mollusks and crustaceans. However, their main prey are the venomous aquatic serpents that share their habitat, having developed resistance to their venom. They capture prey with a quick lunge from ambush, or more rarely, after a brief chase. The Parana-aware can remain underwater for nearly 5 minutes, swim at speeds approaching 10 km/h, dive to depths nearing 20 m, and travel up to 300 m while underwater. Small prey is eaten at the surface, but larger ones are taken to the shore to be consumed. Serpents are typically eaten from the head, being held by the marsupial’s forepaws. Mollusks are captured and taken to rocks, where, using their forepaws, they hit the shell until it breaks. Crabs are captured and their claws removed before being consumed.

Parana-aware are solitary animals, male and female meet up only to mate. While they can breed during the entire year, most of the births happen during the winter. The male will enter the female’s territory and mate with her. If another male appears, the two fight in a fierce battle on the water until one of them gives up and swims away. The victorious male will stay with the female for two weeks, after that he leaves. The gestation period is 22 days and the birth occurs in the female’s den. A strong ring of muscle makes the pouch (which opens to the rear) watertight, so the young remain dry, even when the mother is totally immersed in water, however the female will stay in shallow waters during this time so that the pups do not suffocate during long dives. During this time, she eats more crabs and snails, prey that do not require her to stay under water for a long time. A pup is the size of a grain of rice.

Up to 17 Parana-awares are born in each litter, but only six survive the first two weeks. The survivors stay in their mother's pouch for nine weeks, suckling on one of the mother's six teats for milk. During the tenth week, the pups venture out of the pouch and start to learn to swim and are weaned with 18 weeks. They will stay with the mother learning how to hunt until they have 23 weeks, turning independents and leaving the female at this time. They reach sexual maturity with 10 months and they have a lifespan of 4 years.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 07:18. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Sin..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Since we are going to make a chapter about the Catatumbo Delta, I think that the sungrebe could fit on this one. What do you think?


Yes, but what new characterictics it will have?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Parana-aware



Very good description, but what is their adaptation to salt water? And does salt water interfere with the development of offspring? These points should be taken into account in the description. And it is advisable to remember in the description about the Yapok, that such a water opposum has already been in history, but it wasn't live in salt water. Also it's better to write, that maracaibian opposum Didelphis marsupialis first learned to swim in fresh water, but when the lake became a sea gulf, it was forced to adapt to live in salt water. And then already describe the emergence of new adaptations to this very salty water.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 08:09. Заголовок: Let's think who ..


Let's think who will be in Catatumbo chapter?

Mammals:
1. Awaruwape - semiaquatic swimming in fresh and salt sea water jaguar-like descendent of ocelot - described - will be the main hero
2. Cabiai-pyinko - peccary-like descendent of brazilian guinea pig - described

Birds
3. Kotooro - will be descendant of Pionus menstruus eating crabs and shellfish in the mangroves (Kotooro - means parrot in wayuu language). - described
4. Katipirüin - descendent of Pyrocephalus obscurus (the name in wayuu language) - it will be catching flies, mosquitoes and different parasites on the bodies of barocavias and Cabiai-pyinko. - described
5. Amapejàu - descendant of the Jacana jacana (the name in carib language). -undescribed
6. Cyculi - descendent of sungrebe (Heliornis fulica) (Cyculi - is the name of the bird in Guahibo language) - will have interesting niche in the delta of Catatumbo. -undescribed

Reptiles
7. Arakaka - Guiana wood turtle, scorpion mud turtle, galap (Rhinoclemmys punctularia) - sometimes found in Lake Maracaibo, we can give this name arakaka to Rhinoclemmys diademata (the endemic of Maracaibo) -undescribed (I'll describe)

Fishes
8. Kariwiri - the Carib name off unknown fish from the Characidae family, this name we will give to scooling cardinal tetra.
will be anadromous will lay eggs in fresh water
undescribed
9. Apeina - (what means stream in carib language) archer fish-like ciclid (the ancestor will be Andinoacara pulcher very beautiful local fish with local name Acara, that mean stream) undescribed

Invertebrates
10. Parare - mantid in Carib language. undescribed
Скрытый текст

11. Maba - in arawak language called Melipona favosa what is translated honey will pollinate Mureru undescribed (I will describe)
12. Mureru tano, or Knight beetle. - the biggest waterlilia Victoria Amazonica is pollinated by beetles Cyclocephala hardyi, will pollinate Mureru https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2803590/ and will have exosceleton like an ant Acromyrmex echinatior - it has something like knight metal armor - biomineral exoskeleton with CaMg(CO3)2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19566-3

Plants
13. Ocumo - Xanthosoma sagittifolium - with edible leaves, stems and tubers. Huge thickets of this plant will grow around the entire lake and all local herbivores will come to eat it, especially barocavias and cabiai-pyinko. Ocumo is the name of this plant in Panare language, which belongs to the Carib family. - undescribed
14. Mureru - waterlily in Carib, descendant usual Nymphaea alba invasive from Europe but it can evolve to the form of Victoria amazonica.

I think we will first should write this chapter.

Because some of it's hero's periodically will appear in Maracaibo chapter.

This species that will also periodically appear in Maracaibo chapter:
Mammals:
1. Awaruwape - semiaquatic swimming in fresh and salt sea water jaguar-like descendent of ocelot - described - will be the main hero of the chapter
2. Cabiai-pyinko - peccary-like descendent of brazilian guinea pig - described

Birds
3. Kotooro - will be descendant of Pionus menstruus eating crabs and shellfish in the mangroves (Kotooro - means parrot in wayuu language). - described
4. Katipirüin - descendent of Pyrocephalus obscurus (the name in wayuu language) - it will be catching flies, mosquitoes and different parasites on the bodies of barocavias and Cabiai-pyinko. - described

Reptiles
7. Arakaka - Guiana wood turtle, scorpion mud turtle, galap (Rhinoclemmys punctularia) - sometimes found in Lake Maracaibo, we can give this name arakaka to Rhinoclemmys diademata (the endemic of Maracaibo) -undescribed (I'll describe)

Fishes
8. Kariwiri - the Carib name off unknown fish from the Characidae family, this name we will give to scooling cardinal tetra.
will be anadromous will lay eggs in fresh water
undescribed

Plants
13. Ocumo - Xanthosoma sagittifolium - with edible leaves, stems and tubers. Huge thickets of this plant will grow around the entire lake and all local herbivores will come to eat it, especially barocavias and cabiai-pyinko. Ocumo is the name of this plant in Panare language, which belongs to the Carib family. - undescribed

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 08:39. Заголовок: Also will describe f..


Also may describe for Catatumbo delta snail Pomacea canaliculata which will eat the leaves of waterlily and oviposite in it's leaves. The Kotooro will eats the snail, the fry of Apeina will eat it's eggs.

But I can't choose the name of a snail. I like two names in carib language of unknown snails: Kùweroro and Kiwisukiri. Which name do you prefer?

May be mari-sapelko snails eating fish (mari - snail) could be euryhaline species and will specially swim in the Catatumbo delta to catch a large snail swimming in the water towards the waterlily.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 11:55. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Yes, ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Yes, but what new characterictics it will have?


Do you have sugestions? Gruiformes are usually conservative, but I thought that the sungrebe could have developed some relationship with the water lilies.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Very good description, but what is their adaptation to salt water? And does salt water interfere with the development of offspring? These points should be taken into account in the description. And it is advisable to remember in the description about the Yapok, that such a water opposum has already been in history, but it wasn't live in salt water. Also it's better to write, that maracaibian opposum Didelphis marsupialis first learned to swim in fresh water, but when the lake became a sea gulf, it was forced to adapt to live in salt water. And then already describe the emergence of new adaptations to this very salty water.


Ok! I'll think about these details and add them in the description.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But I can't choose the name of a snail. I like two names in carib language of unknown snails: Kùweroro and Kiwisukiri. Which name do you prefer?


I like Kiwisukiri more.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Also may describe for Catatumbo delta snail Pomacea canaliculata which will eat the leaves of waterlily and oviposite in it's leaves. The Kotooro will eats the snail, the fry of Apeina will eat it's eggs.


I like this idea!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 14:50. Заголовок: but I thought that t..



 цитата:
but I thought that the sungrebe could have developed some relationship with the water lilies.



May be sungrebe will eat the seeds of waterlily, and distribute them with droppings. It will be necessary to come up with some new properties for the water lily seeds, they will have some kind of tasty shell that is digested in the stomach of the sungrebe, and the seeds themselves will ripen under the influence of enzymes in its stomach. Those. without the sungrebe, the water lily will not be able to spread. The sungrebe itself, depending on the tasty seeds of the water lily, will protect the plant from overgrowth by other aquatic plants and algae, eating them so that they do not clog waterlilly, this way the bird will clear the living space for the water lily, and will also eat herbivorous fishes that want to eat up under water at the bottom thick creeping rhizomes of waterlilies, rich in starch. These fishes will be Itupu-sapelko - herbivores fishs, they also will be euryhaline, like Mari-sapelko - snails eating fish. The second name of the bird will be sungrebe-gardener, for the fact that he monitors the harvest of water lily seeds.



JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like Kiwisukiri more.


So do I!

So I think the chapter about Catatumbo delta will be about the thickets of waterlily Murenu.

Cabiai-pyinko will like to eat it's leaves and leaves of Ocumo; Katipirüin - will it parasites of Cabiai-pyinko; Awaruwape will hunt the Cabiai-pyinko, hiding in the thickets of Ocumo; Arakaka eats leaves of Ocumo; Maba and Mureru tano will pollinate the Murenu; Parare will hunt Maba and oviposite in leaves of Murenu; Apeina will eat Parare and spawn on the lives of Murenu, i's fry eats eggs of Parare; Kiwisukiri will eats laeves of Murenu; Kotooro, Arakaka and Mari-sapelko will eat Kiwisukiri; Itupu-sapelko eats under water at the bottom thick creeping rhizomes of Murenu, rich in starch, Cyculi eats seeds of Murenu and distribute them with droppings and eats Itupu-sapelko.

We must think about the new characteristics of Amapejàu. May be she will eat frogs, for example Pipa parva (pipa it's caribbean name, we will add to her name other caribbean word Poporu, what means just frog, so it's name will be Pipa poporu or may be just Poporu). Poporu will also try to oviposite on leaves of Murenu before eating caviar of Apeina, Amapejàu will hunt the Poporu just in time when it's spawning. Cyculi and Amapejàu will not be aggressive to each other. Poporu also will be the food for Kotooro and Arakaka.

I think that Cyculi will have some relations with Kotooro. When a lot of Kiwisukiri get to the leaves of Murenu then Cyculi gives a special signal that calls a Kotooro to eat the snails.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 17:16. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be sungrebe will eat the seeds of waterlily, and distribute them with droppings. It will be necessary to come up with some new properties for the water lily seeds, they will have some kind of tasty shell that is digested in the stomach of the sungrebe, and the seeds themselves will ripen under the influence of enzymes in its stomach. Those. without the sungrebe, the water lily will not be able to spread. The sungrebe itself, depending on the tasty seeds of the water lily, will protect the plant from overgrowth by other aquatic plants and algae, eating them so that they do not clog waterlilly, this way the bird will clear the living space for the water lily, and will also eat herbivorous fishes that want to eat up under water at the bottom thick creeping rhizomes of waterlilies, rich in starch. These fishes will be Itupu-sapelko - herbivores fishs, they also will be euryhaline, like Mari-sapelko - snails eating fish. The second name of the bird will be sungrebe-gardener, for the fact that he monitors the harvest of water lily seeds.


I think that it works. Sungrebes can eat seeds and fruits, with water lilies producing edible ones. Maybe this Neocene water lily will produce some attractive fruit for these birds.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
We must think about the new characteristics of Amapejàu. May be she will eat frogs, for example Pipa parva (pipa it's caribbean name, we will add to her name other caribbean word Poporu, what means just frog, so it's name will be Pipa poporu or may be just Poporu). Poporu will also try to oviposite on leaves of Murenu before eating caviar of Apeina, Amapejàu will hunt the Poporu just in time when it's spawning. Cyculi and Amapejàu will not be aggressive to each other. Poporu also will be the food for Kotooro and Arakaka.


The Amapejàu could also have some elaborated courtship and perhaps its facial skull have some different shape.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I think that Cyculi will have some relations with Kotooro. When a lot of Kiwisukiri get to the leaves of Murenu then Cyculi gives a special signal that calls a Kotooro to eat the snails.


It could be similar to how honeyguides can lead humans to hives of bees.
What do you think of a small species of semi-aquatic rodent visiting the water lilies during the night in search of seeds and fruits? Depending of its size, they could also be able to crack the armor of the Knight beetles.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 17:50. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that it works. Sungrebes can eat seeds and fruits, with water lilies producing edible ones. Maybe this Neocene water lily will produce some attractive fruit for these birds.


I know the roots of waterlilis are edible and a lot of herbivoruos mammals eat them, I know birds are eating seeds, but I can't imagine the fruits of waterlily. What would they look like?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The Amapejàu could also have some elaborated courtship


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
and perhaps its facial skull have some different shape.


What for? It will be related to some specific diet?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It could be similar to how honeyguides can lead humans to hives of bees.


Something like that

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 19:04. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: What ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
What would they look like?


They could be more colorful or have some sweet smell coming from them, perhaps even exudates a sweet substance to attract animals.
What do you think of a small species of semi-aquatic rodent visiting the water lilies during the night in search of seeds and fruits? Depending of its size, they could also be able to crack the armor of the Knight beetles.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
What for? It will be related to some specific diet?


I think that it could be a case of sexual selection, with males having a different structure and also more colorful.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 19:23. Заголовок: JOrnitho, wowoka It&..


JOrnitho, wowoka
It's interesting discussion! I like that! I dont'watched this thread several days, but it's still active!

 цитата:
I think that it could be a case of sexual selection, with males having a different structure and also more colorful.


I also think that this theory is better, because speciation led by sexual selection is very often and makes new species more beautiful and different in colour than "normal".

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 21:33. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
They could be more colorful or have some sweet smell coming from them, perhaps even exudates a sweet substance to attract animals.


May be you don't understand my question ... There is no one plant in order Nymphaeales that produce "juicy fruits".

So my question: what part of the flower of waterlily will become a "fruit" and how it evolves into a "fruit"?



Or you mean that the capsule of waterlily will become a "juicy edible fruit"?

Cyculi will eat it, fruit will digest in the stomach, but the water lily seeds also will have some kind of tasty shell that is also digested in the stomach of the sungrebe, and the internal contents of the seed will be indigestible, but these internal contents of the seed themselves will ripen under the influence of enzymes in Cyculi stomach, and with the droppings the bird will settle the waterlily along the entire water coast of the Catatumbo River.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think of a small species of semi-aquatic rodent visiting the water lilies during the night in search of seeds and fruits? Depending of its size, they could also be able to crack the armor of the Knight beetles.


It can be be:
Sigmodontomys alfari
or which is less likely Zygodontomys brevicauda
taporoporo wèpomy korònaka (in carib language it's mean "little mouse swimming underwater") You can mix that words as you wish" or just "little mouse" or "swimming little mouse" or "underwater little mouse"
Just name it in english and I'll tranlate it in carib.

But better it will be bat (one of these):
Micronycteris megalotis
Dermanura phaeotis
Lonchophylla robusta
Rhinophylla pumilio
The name will be Rere or Parerejài (bat in carib) Choose the name by yourself!
I ranked them in order of priority.

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
but it's still active!


Yes, we are going to make two related chapters about Maracaibo gulf & Catatumbo delta!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.04.23 23:55. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Or yo..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Or you mean that the capsule of waterlily will become a "juicy edible fruit"?


I mean, the capsule could become edible and more attractive to animals. It could produce a sweet fragrance, which would come to feed of the bright colored seeds.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Sigmodontomys alfari


I think that it could be the ancestor. Can you translate "little water mouse"? I think that it could be a good name for this species. They could make nests hidden in the aquatic vegetation.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But better it will be bat


Maybe we can have a bat and a rodent? It could be the Dermanura phaeotis and the bats could drink nectar of the water lilies, hunt some insects and occasionally eat the seeds.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 01:46. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I m..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I mean, the capsule could become edible and more attractive to animals. It could produce a sweet fragrance, which would come to feed of the bright seeds.


I propose the capsule became a sweet fragrant juicy edible fruit.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Sigmodontomys alfari. I think that it could be the ancestor.


Ok, I agree.

I propose three variants of name:
Tuna taporoporo (water little mouse)
Wèpomy taporoporo (swimming little mouse)
Korònaka taporoporo (undewater little mouse), if he could dive and swim underwater, then I preffer this name. This name is some kind of courageous)))

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe we can have a bat and a rodent? It could be the Dermanura phaeotis and the bats could drink nectar of the water lilies, hunt some insects and occasionally eat the seeds.


Ok, we can take both.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It could be the Dermanura phaeotis and the bats could drink nectar of the water lilies, hunt some insects and occasionally eat the seeds.


I approve of your choice!
And what name we will give to this bat: Rere or Parerejài?
Both names are interesting, but first, as for me, is shorter.


Then let it be also an owl, that will hunt on water and other animals: water rodent, frog, crab, bat, Ai-Karala and even fishes. The ancestor Glaucidium brasilianum. It will be like fishing owls of the genera Ketupa or Scotopelia. The name Tukutuku - owl in carib.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 02:36. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I pro..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I propose the capsule became a sweet fragrant juicy edible fruit.


Good idea! What do you think if there is relationship between the bat and the mouse when feeding of this fruit? The skin of the fruit could be a bit thick, taking so much effort of the bats to open it. The rodent would come first, openning the skin. Then the bats would consume the rest that was left open. In this case the consumption of these fruits would be more opportunistic.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Korònaka taporoporo (undewater little mouse), if he could dive and swim underwater, then I preffer this name. This name is some kind of courageous)))


I like it too. Maybe it could occasionally dive to reach the eggs that fishes lay under the water lilies.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
And what name we will give to this bat: Rere or Parerejài?


I like Parerejài.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Then let it be also an owl, that will hunt on water and other animals: water rodent, frog, crab, bat, Ai-Karala and even fishes. The ancestor Glaucidium brasilianum. It will be like fishing owls of the genera Ketupa or Scotopelia. The name Tukutuku - owl in carib.


I proposed the genus Piscatostrix fishing owl for South America sometime ago, but the ancestor is the Lophostrix cristata. It's the Nhakurutukutu (owl in Tupi-Guarani). What do you think if the Tukutuku is a member of this genus, but endemic to the Maracaibo?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 09:01. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Goo..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Good idea! What do you think if there is relationship between the bat and the mouse when feeding of this fruit? The skin of the fruit could be a bit thick, taking so much effort of the bats to open it. The rodent would come first, openning the skin. Then the bats would consume the rest that was left open. In this case the consumption of these fruits would be more opportunistic.


I agree, but Cyculi could eat and digest the whole fruit.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like it too. Maybe it could occasionally dive to reach the eggs that fishes lay under the water lilies.


Ok! I think it could!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like Parerejài.


I more like the shorter one, but let it be Parerejài - it's more exotic one

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I proposed the genus Piscatostrix fishing owl for South America sometime ago, but the ancestor is the Lophostrix cristata. It's the Nhakurutukutu (owl in Tupi-Guarani). What do you think if the Tukutuku is a member of this genus, but endemic to the Maracaibo?


Ok! I agree! And how many species include this genus? What the areal of the genus and it's different species?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 10:10. Заголовок: What do you think if..



 цитата:
What do you think if the Tukutuku is a member of this genus, but endemic to the Maracaibo?


Owls do not usually have such small distributions.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 13:53. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I agr..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I agree, but Cyculi could eat and digest the whole fruit.


Yes. They could be adapted to swallow the fruit and digest it.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Ok! I agree! And how many species include this genus? What the areal of the genus and it's different species?


The genus only have one species so far, which is distributed across the Amazon Basin. The Tukutuku could inhabit the Maracaibo region and other areas of Northern South America. We could make it similar to what happens with the genus Pulsatrix in Brazil, with one species (P. perspicillata) being widespread, while other (P. koeniswaldiana) is endemic to the Atlantic forest.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 15:09. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The genus only have one species so far, which is distributed across the Amazon Basin. The Tukutuku could inhabit the Maracaibo region and other areas of Northern South America. We could make it similar to what happens with the genus Pulsatrix in Brazil, with one species (P. perspicillata) being widespread, while other (P. koeniswaldiana) is endemic to the Atlantic forest.


I've understood.

I think the owl should be the last species of the chapter, because there are already too many of them.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 19:11. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I thi..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I think the owl should be the last species of the chapter, because there are already too many of them.


I agree.
By the way, what do you think if the mouse's swimming abilities is also used by it to escape from predators?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 20:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: wha..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
what do you think if the mouse's swimming abilities is also used by it to escape from predators?


It will be something like a "swimming superpower"?
No really, what is that special "swimming abilities"?
Do you mean the speed of swimming, the ability to quickly change the direction of swimming, the ability to dive very quickly to depth, or vice versa, the ability to swim like a dolphin, jumping out of the water, evading predatory fish or something else?

I've end the description of sea turtle for Maracaibo Gulf https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1681319764554-00000176-000-10001-0#051 again in Russian.
But I gave it another name Kataru - in carib it is the name of sea turtle Chelonia mydas.
Or full name Maracaibian bat turtle, or kataru (Pteromedusa kataru)

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 21:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho, did you kn..


JOrnitho, did you know about such neocene plant: Fly-catching tomato (Neolycopersicon muscicarpus) http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/enplants.htm#neolycopersicon_muscicarpus_en ???

What do you think, where in Neocene South America this plant can grow? These must be places with very poor soils.
The description says:

 цитата:
Habitat: South America, light forests in tropical and subtropical areas.



May be in far future, when we realize all our plans of chapters, we could make a chapter dedicated to the dense thicket of this plant, its victims, parasites, kleptoparasites and pollinators:

 цитата:
Lateral sprouts and top rise vertically, and the plant forms the dense thicket.
...
The plant consumes tiny soft-bodied insects – plant lice, thripses, small caterpillars and maggots
...
This plant is pollinated by insects
...
Some species of bugs and beetles are adapted to “robbing” of this plant: they seize stuck insects from its leaves.
...
Fruit of this plant is small red berry. In ripen condition the fruit of plant is edible, and it is eaten willingly by large ground rodents.



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 12.04.23 23:44. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Do yo..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Do you mean the speed of swimming, the ability to quickly change the direction of swimming, the ability to dive very quickly to depth, or vice versa, the ability to swim like a dolphin, jumping out of the water, evading predatory fish or something else?


It's more the fact that they can jump from the vegetation to the water and swim faster than their ancestors. Perhaps they can stay under water for a long time, reaching the surface only when its safe.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I've end the description of sea turtle for Maracaibo Gulf https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1681319764554-00000176-000-10001-0#051 again in Russian.


It's a cool animal (I used the translator)! I finished the description of the ariid catfish, but I'll post it together with the description of other three fishes.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think, where in Neocene South America this plant can grow? These must be places with very poor soils.


I think that the Andes could be a good place. The tepuis of Amazon and the "campos de altitude" of the mountains of Southeastern South America are also good candidates. These "campos" are biomes that remained from the last glaciation and are full of endemic species.
Both tepuis and campos are interesting place for chapters!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 10:19. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: It&..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It's more the fact that they can jump from the vegetation to the water and swim faster than their ancestors. Perhaps they can stay under water for a long time, reaching the surface only when its safe.


Accepted!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It's a cool animal


Thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I finished the description of the ariid catfish, but I'll post it together with the description of other three fishes.


I'll be waiting for your descriptions!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that the Andes could be a good place. The tepuis of Amazon and the "campos de altitude" of the mountains of Southeastern South America are also good candidates. These "campos" are biomes that remained from the last glaciation and are full of endemic species.
Both tepuis and campos are interesting place for chapters!



Do tepuis or campos have areas of dry sparse light forests?

May be I'll somewhen make bestiary for the future chapter about this Fly-catching tomato.
You probably already understood, I adore making bestiaries.
I think this tomato could enter into symbiosis with some kind of Carnivorous fungus.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 11:38. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Do te..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Do tepuis or campos have areas of dry sparse light forests?


The slopes of the Tepuis are dry, but the campos usually have lower temperatures than the forests in the lower lands that surround it.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I think this tomato could enter into symbiosis with some kind of Carnivorous fungus.


Interesting. Would this fungus also catch nematodes?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 13:39. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The slopes of the Tepuis are dry, but the Campos usually have lower temperatures than the forests in the lower lands that surround it.


As far as I understand there are a lot of carnivorous species of plants on Tepuis, but how tomato will get there?

And then the description says
 цитата:
Habitat: South America, light forests in tropical and subtropical areas.


Are there in South America any forests with very poor soils?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Interesting. Would this fungus also catch nematodes?


I hope something more big, like mole crickets.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 14:18. Заголовок: b]wovoka As far as ..


wovoka

 цитата:
As far as I understand there are a lot of carnivorous species of plants on Tepuis, but how tomato will get there?


No. Fly-catcher tomato grows in light forest, so I think that strange habitat of tepuis won't be good for it. But we can place other carnivore plants on tepuis, like already evolved Drosera and Sarracenia species or predatory bromeliads.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 14:59. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Fly-..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Fly-catcher tomato grows in light forest


Yes, that's why, if we want to make a chapter about this plant, we need to find the light forests in South America with poor soils.

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wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Yes, that's why, if we want to make a chapter about this plant, we need to find the light forests in South America with poor soils.


Maybe savannahs and gallery forests. The Caatinga of Brazil is also mostly dry shrubland.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 18:58. Заголовок: predatory bromeliads..



 цитата:
predatory bromeliads


That seems interesting!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 19:05. Заголовок: медведь That seems ..


медведь

 цитата:
That seems interesting!


We already have protocarnivorous ones: Brocchinia reducta and Catopsis berteroniana. It can evolve in something new in Neocene.

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лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
We already have protocarnivorous ones: Brocchinia reducta and Catopsis berteroniana. It can evolve in something new in Neocene.


These plants could live in the tepuis of the Amazon. A chapter about the endemic fauna of these areas would be interesting.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 22:15. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: gal..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
gallery forests


Where gallery forests in Brazil, can you indicate on the map?




About our fishing owl Tukutuku in Catatumbo delta, we we discussed with Медведь, that it can be diving for water animals like Osprey.
Owls have an uropygial gland that secretes oil, an owl can spread oil on feathers so as not to get wet when diving.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 13.04.23 23:55. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Where..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Where gallery forests in Brazil, can you indicate on the map?


It's difficult to point because it are located around any small river and stream that flows in Central Brazil. The humidity of these areas allow trees to grow and attract species of the dry surrounding areas.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
About our fishing owl Tukutuku in Catatumbo delta, we we discussed with Медведь, that it can be diving for water animals like Osprey.
Owls have an uropygial gland that secretes oil, an owl can spread oil on feathers so as not to get wet when diving.


It's an interesting idea. The Tukutuku could be more specialized than the nhakurutukutu, with the glands being more developed.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.23 00:01. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: It&..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It's an interesting idea. The Tukutuku could be more specialized than the nhakurutukutu, with the glands being more developed.


Yes!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It's difficult to point because it are located around any small river and stream that flows in Central Brazil. The humidity of these areas allow trees to grow and attract species of the dry surrounding areas.


So first of all it is around any small river in Cerrado?
Скрытый текст


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.23 01:20. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So fi..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So first of all it is around any small river in Cerrado?


Yes. I believe that it's also possible for it to occur in the chaco region.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.23 04:08. Заголовок: I finished these two..


I finished these two fishes. лягушка, can you give your opinion about them? Fishes aren't my area of expertise.
Also, Can someone post a link for the description of Pike live-bearer (Sphyraenesia ferox)? I plan to work in the Wentameke-arawana next.

Typanake-tunu, Southern shark catfish (Arioselache vorax)
Order: Siluriformes
Family: Ariidae
Habitat: Atlantic coast of South America, coastal areas and pelagic habitats
As a result of the collapse of the planktonic communities between the transition between the Holocene and Neocene, many large predatory fishes became extinct. New species evolved in the vacuum left by their demise. Among them were the ariid catfishes. Some representatives of this group had become predators similar in body shape to sharks and are known as the Genus Arioselache. While the type species, the Shark catfish inhabits Caribbean waters, another member of this genus, the Typanake-tunu is an inhabitant of the Atlantic coast of South America. In Carib language, Typanake means catfish and tunu means shark.
The Typanake-tunu is a very large ariid catfish, reaching 300 cm and can have at least 150 Kg. Like their Caribbean relatives, they occupy the ecological niche of small sharks. They are well adapted to hunt large inhabitants of these waters, mostly by waiting for them in the seafloor and going up to attack in an ambush. These fishes spawn in shallow waters, where they establish well delimited territories that they fiercely defend from neighbors. Outside the breeding season, they move along the coast of South America, but avoid going into open sea.
The body shape of this catfish is very similar to that of a shark. Its body is streamlined, with sharp triangular fins and wide mouth with numerous teeth. The Typanake-tunu is colored gray-blue, the edges of fins are white, and the belly is white. Like the Caribbean species, they also have pectoral fins supplied with pointed poisonous spikes. They have large eyes, which shine in the darkness. It's a result of a layer of cells in the retina that contain guanine. It serves the catfish habit of hunting in twilight and at night, hiding during the day. In search of small prey wattles supplied with chemoreceptors help this fish. Like the Shark catfish, the Typanake-tunu has two long ones on top of the jaw and a barb formed by 4 growing near each other short wattles on the bottom jaw.
Males brood up to 30 egg of about 2 cm in diameter in their mouth for 2 months. During this period, they do not feed and survive with their fat reservoirs. In case of danger it swallows eggs for their protection, but moves them to the mouth again when the situation is safe. After the fry hatches, male protects them from enemies for the first 4 months. While they grow, the young keep near the head of the male. Sexual maturity is reached within 1 year and they have a lifespan of 37 years, but under exceptional conditions they can reach 60 years.

Ari-Tukunare, Strong-jawled peacock bass (Neocichla macrocephala)
Order:Cichliformes
Family:Cichlidae
Habitat: Estuaries, river deltas, mangroves and coastal waters of Northern South America, from the Amazon to the Maracaibo Gulf.
The transition between the Holocene and Neocene had caused the extinction of several species. However, the survivors continued to evolve and adapt to new habitats. The butterfly peacock bass (Cichla ocellaris) was a one of these survivors. This very large species of cichlid from South America gave rise to the Ari-Tukunare. In carib language Ari means shellfish and Tukunare is the name of its ancestor. This fish is anadromous, being capable of living in both fresh and saltwater. They inhabit estuaries, river deltas, mangroves and coastal areas of Northern South America, from the Amazon to the Maracaibo Gulf. To survive in these brackish and salt water areas, these fishes had evolved to become euryhaline. It actively excretes salt out from the gills. However, they are newcomers to this lifestyle and their survival is limited to coastal regions, close to where freshwater meets the salt one. They’ll not swim in the open sea.
The Ari-Tukunare are sexually dismorphic. The males have a large and rigid protuberance on their heads that is used in intraspecific disputes during the breeding season. Besides it, they are also larger, reaching 75 cm in opposition to the simple 60 cm of the females. Both are also different in their colors, the male’s body is greenish yellow and the fins are bright orange. The skin covering the protuberance on their head is pale red, but becomes bright during the breeding season. The females have a dull green body and pale yellow fins. The only thing that the two have in common are the two vertical dark strips that run down the sides of their bodies.
With powerful mandibles, the Ari-Tukunare is capable of breaking the shell of shellfish and the exoskeleton of crustaceans. Thus, these are the main part of its diet. They consume to a lesser degree snails and smaller fishes.
Spawning season for the fish happens during the rainy season. Females congregate in large schools. Such groups will swim in circles, while the males move around them. Fights between males happen constantly, with them headbutting each other with the protuberances. Bites are also common. These disputes can cause serious wounds and some males perish during this period.
When a female accepts a male, she’ll leave the school and start swimming next to him. Then, the couple will leave toward a safe place, usually in more fresh waters. Like their ancestors, adult Ari-Tukunare create large flat surfaces that are hardened down near the shore in order to serve as a spawn location. The two swim around the nest together, turning their bodies so that the eggs and sperm that are being released will come in contact on the way down to the nest. Once the eggs are laid, both adults are responsible for protecting them from predators.The eggs can take about two to four days to hatch. The parents will watch the fry for three to four weeks. Ari-Tukunare can spawn three times per rainy season.
The growth from spawn to the average length progresses rapidly throughout the first 16 to 18 months of life. Average lifespan for the Ari-Tukunare is 6 to 10 years.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.23 07:58. Заголовок: JOrnitho All of fis..


JOrnitho
All of fishes are good! They are good-described, and I don't see anything strange in their descriptions insterd of this:

 цитата:
reaching 35 cm in opposition to the simple 25 cm of the females


Why they were diminished to this size? Present day's peacock basses are growing to ~60-70 cm, and I don't see reasons to becomw smaller to its descendents.

 цитата:
Butterfly Peacock Bass


Correct this name. Butterfly peacock bass was ancestor, but not this form.
And if this fish will become smaller, I think it shall have shorter lifespan - more predators will be able to eat it.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.23 13:30. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Why ..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Why they were diminished to this size? Present day's peacock basses are growing to ~60-70 cm, and I don't see reasons to becomw smaller to its descendents.


I'll edit the size. I thought that they would have more or less the size of their ancestors, but I ended typing the average size of a young.
Effects of doing it late in the night.
Offtopic, I saw the images that Cossus did for the project with the AI. He did a excelent work with it!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.23 06:53. Заголовок: it's in this cha..


it's in this chapter: http://www.sivatherium.narod.ru/2pircarb.htm

good fishes!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 14.04.23 08:59. Заголовок: Interesting fish!..


Interesting fish!

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I finished the description of other two species. лягушка, I used the information of your marine Salinopoecilia to make the Sapelko because they would be from the same genus. Can you see if it's good?

Wentameke-arawana, or jumping pike life-bearer (Sphyranesia pseudovolans)
Order:Cyprinodontiformes
Family: Rapaciliidae
Habitat: Coastal and open waters of Tropical Atlantic.
The mass extinction that resulted from the Plankton Collapse in the boundary between the Holocene and Neocene left several open niches. Once the ecosystems once again entered in equilibrium, new species were able to evolve to fill them. This was the case of the genus Salinopoecilia, descendant of tiny live-bearer fishes (Gambusiidae) that became adapted to live at the sea. After the extinction of large predatory fishes, this group evolved to replace them. One of the species in this genus is the Wentameke-arawane, a large fish that inhabit much of the tropical waters of the Atlantic Ocean. In Carib language, their name means “in eating habits similar to fish arawana”. In the Holocene era, people also called arawana - the “water monkey” because of its ability to jump out of the water and catch prey.
The Wentameke-arawana is a very large fish. They have a body length of 170 to 200 cm, with males being slightly smaller than the females. Their morphology doesn't differ much from other close relatives, such as the pike life-bearer. The Wentameke-arawana have a large head (approximately 20% of body length), wide mouth with recurved teeth and big eyes. What differs this species from others is that their elongated and slim body reaches larger lengths than those of close species. Being compressed on both sides, their body became very aerodynamic. It allows them to jump out of the water with great speed. They also have a short dorsal fin, with a bright yellow color.
The rest of their morphology is typical for the genus. The caudal peduncle is tetrahedral in section, they have a well-expressed keel stretch and there are strong muscles, letting the fish to swim fast and to make sharp throws. Tail fin is high and crescent, typical of a fast swimmer. This species has a silvery-blue body, lacking the black speckles of the pike life-bearer. The colors are darker in the upperparts and lighter below.
The Wentameke-arawana feed on fishes and squids, hunted with the use of their speed. Dragonfly life bearers are among the most common prey, being captured even when they try to glide over the water, the predator will jump after them. It'll also swim near the surface of the water, waiting for potential prey, primarily birds and bats. In coastal areas such as mangroves they’ll hunt arboreal animals sitting on branches hanging over the water.
They form schools of 10 to 20 individuals, which patrol the waters after prey. Fertilization, like that of their ancestors, is performed with the help of first rays of anal fin, which are very long at the male of this species. When the fish swim, they reach the tail edge. The basis of these rays is covered with small scales, and fin rays form the tube intended for injection of soft roe into the female’s oviducts. Pregnancy lasts about two weeks and 300 young fishes can be produced in one litter. Being tiny and vulnerable to predators, a significant part of them perishes already during the first month of life. But being one-year-old, this fish already grows to 70 cm long. Sexual maturity is reached within 2 years. Life expectancy seldom happens more than 15 years, they are still targets for predators such large squids and sharks.

Amòiky-sapelko, Paradise salinopoecilia (Salinopoecilia paradisea)
Order: Cyprinodontiformes
Family: Poecilidae
Habitat: Tropical coastal waters of the Southern Atlantic ocean.
The Planktonic Collapse during the transition of the Holocene to the Neocene had a devastating impact over the creatures that lived in the sea. Many animals perished, leaving their niches vacant. This gave opportunity for species to evolve and to replace them. The genus Salinopecilia was one of these cases. Descending from the Poecilia livebearers, they became fully adapted to live in saltwater. Among the members of this Neocenic group is the Sapelko, an inhabitant of the tropical coastal waters of the Southern Atlantic ocean. In the Carib language, Salpeko was the name of the Poecilia parae and Amòiky means "collect many small objects".
Differently from other species that descended from the livebearers, the Amòiky-sapelko is a small fish. The males have 15 cm of length and females are 20 cm. Like other members of this genus, this species have a body shape similar to that of their ancestors, but noticeably more elongated. They share with the marine salinopoecilia several morphological characteristics: a relatively small head, with the mouth being directed upwards, but not as much as in their ancestors. Jaws that are filled with small, sharp, recurved teeth, with the ones in the mandible being slightly longer than the ones in the jaw. Powerful fan-shaped pectoral fins located behind the gill coverts. A pointed-triangular dorsal fin located on the middle of their back, which is slightly more elongated than that of their ancestor. A fan-shaped caudal fin that is wider in the males.
The anal fin is located after the anus, in the female it is pointed-triangular, like in the ancestor, in the male it is transformed into a tubular copulatory organ (gonopodia). Pelvic fins are slightly in front of anus, triangular and reduced. They are smaller in the male than female. The color of this fish is silvery with a metallic sheen, the scales are cycloid, the lateral line is well developed. The upperparts are darker than the underparts. All these characteristics are shared by all the Salinopoecilia species.
What distinguishes this species from others is the color of their fins. The fins of females are transparent with dull brown dots along the rays. In the males, the fins are bright blue with dark black dots. Such colors are more vivid in healthy males, being a criteria for the females to choose possible partners for reproduction.
The Amòiky-sapelko is a diurnal animal, at night these fish rest and hide from predators among rocks and aquatic vegetation. They feed on various zooplankton organisms, small crustaceans, fry and plant debris, devouring them through suction. They live in shallow waters, close to algae and aquatic plants.
These fish can form schools of 20 to 40 individuals. In these groups there is a larger number of females compared to that of the males. Thus, polyandry is the common practice among them. They breed all year round, with pregnancy lasting one month. A mature female gives birth to up to 50 tiny fry that are left to fend for themselves. Because of the schooling lifestyle, these livebearers rarely show cannibalism, but the young avoid staying in the school.
The fry hide in thickets of algae and water plants and grow rapidly, with three months they already have a length of 6 cm and start to gather in groups. They reach sexual maturity at the age of 8 months for males and one year for females. They have a lifespan of 5 to 13 years, but many are preyed upon before reaching this age.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 09:39. Заголовок: JOrnitho there are ..


JOrnitho
there are good fish, I like them. I'm not against placing Sapelko in same genus.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 00:41. Заголовок: JOrnitho, good fishe..


JOrnitho, good fishes!


 цитата:
It’s related to the fish’s habit of jumping out of the water to catch prey.


May be you should clarify information "first of all birds and bats".

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Carib language, their name means “in eating habits similar to fish arawana”.


May be here you should add to the decription, what was the fish arawana, what was it's "eating habits"

For example, you can write:

 цитата:
In the Holocene era, people also called arawana - the “water monkey” because of its ability to jump out of the water and catch prey, it usually swam near the surface of the water, waiting for potential prey, primarily birds and bats, as well as arboreal animals sitting on branches hanging over the water.



I thought we decided Sapelko would be a species with different subspecies occupying different econiches:
A: Itupu-sapelko herbivores fish (itupu - grass in Carib)
B: Amòiky-sapelko - planktonvorus fish (Amòiky means "collect many small objects" in Carib )
C: Ìmempìkiwoto-sapelko small fish eating (Ìmempìki – very small; woto - the name of any fish)
D: woto-sapelko medium fish eating
E: pàporo-sapelko omnivores fish (pàporo - means "everything" in Carib)
F: mari-sapelko snails eating fish (mari - snail)
Or may be sapelko better will be a Genus with differrent species occupying different econiches?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
In the Carib language, Salpeko was the name of the Poecilia parae.


Misprint! Sapelko.




JOrnitho, I have a new crazy idea.

There is such a water mushroom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psathyrella_aquatica

Mushrooms of the genus Psathyrella also exist in South America.

The closest to Maracaibo region Psathyrella candolleana - map of areal https://www.gbif.org/species/9201176
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candolleomyces_candolleanus

The idea is to make this mushroom undewater in Catatumbo and to make symbiosis with waterlily.
May be it can make mycorrhiza with waterlily?
And this mushrooms will be eating our water rodent - Korònaka taporoporo and may be some fishes.

The name of the water mushroom will be:
Tuna sampore or Tuna sapipi or Tuna urupe (tuna - water in carib and sampore; sapipi; urupe - it's all means mushroom in carib).
What do you think about this idea? And what the name do you prefer?




JOrnitho, about carnivoruos tomato.

I think the chapter name wil be "Thickets of predatory tomato".
Like a horror movie title

Are there any gallery forests on the banks of the Rio Salado as she crosses the Chaco region?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salado_River_(Argentina)
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Austral

we will need for the chapter:
1. carnivourus mashroom, which will be in symbiosis with tomato
2. Mole cricket - the food for the mushroom.
3. nematode - the food for the mushroom.

victims of tomato
3. plant lice
4. Aphids
5. thripses
6. small caterpillars
7. maggots

pollinators
8. two or three species of bees (best of all Augochloropsis, they are very beautifull)

kleptoparasites
9. predatory bugs
10. predatory beetles

parasites
11. caterpillars of Noctuidae (maybe Helicoverpa zea)
12. Acanthosomatidae
13. Chrysomelidae


 цитата:
Fruit of this plant is small red berry. In ripen condition the fruit of plant is edible, and it is eaten willingly by large ground rodents.


14. may be it will be Chaco grass mouse (Akodon toba) which will become bigger.
15. bird eating fruits
16 bird eating caterpillars of Noctuidae

17. Ao ao, or pecarry-entelodon - eating meat and plants. Perhaps a group of them is attracted by the fruits of the tomato.

Сoncrete species will be determined later, if you help me?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 01:40. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be you should clarify information "first of all birds and bats".



wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be here you should add to the decription, what was the fish arawana, what was it's "eating habits"


I'll add these information!

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Or may be sapelko better will be a Genus with differrent species occupying different econiches?


I think that it could be a genus with several different species. These characteristics would be too different to fit in the Salinopoecilia. I can change the species that I made to be only the paradise Salinopoecilia and the Sapelko a separate one.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think about this idea? And what the name do you prefer?


I like it! I think that the name Tuna sapipi is better.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Сoncrete species will be determined later, if you help me?


Of course! Maybe the Ao ao peccary could appear on this chapter. I think that it would be like an entelodon, eating meat and plants. Perhaps a group of them is attracted by the fruits of the tomato.
I had a crazy idea after watching a documentary called "A Grande Árvore" (The Great Tree in English). It’s about the relationship of a fig tree in Belize and the animals living on it.
What do you think of a chapter happening around such a tree somewhere in Amazon or North Panama? It could be a fig tree or something similar. We could describe the animals nesting there, the ones that eat the fruits, the ones that polinize it.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 09:49. Заголовок: Interesting fish!..


Interesting fish!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 11:44. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I&#..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I'll add these information!


Thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that it could be a genus with several different species.


This is the better variant.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like it! I think that the name Tuna sapipi is better.


Ok! I'm glad you liked the idea!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe the Ao ao peccary could appear on this chapter. I think that it would be like an entelodon, eating meat and plants. Perhaps a group of them is attracted by the fruits of the tomato.


I just need the idea of such an animal for the chapter! Thank you!
Ao ao, or pecarry-entelodon - what do think about this name?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think of a chapter happening around such a tree somewhere in Amazon or North Panama? It could be a fig tree or something similar. We could describe the animals nesting there, the ones that eat the fruits, the ones that polinize it.


What do you think to unite your chapter about fig tree and my idea about South Panama, that i decided to call "The Monkeys brotherhood"
http://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-7-1681546986977-00000029-000-10001-0#043.001.001.001 - here I was substantiated the idea and created a list of local animals.
It will be very big fig tree, were will be something like brotherhood between differeant species of monkeys, there also will be fruit eating bats, tree rodents, tree oppossums, and peccary and agouti that will collect fallen fruits and fruit eating birds.
Pollinators: collibri, bats, insects.
Predatory birds and mammals.

We will surely make this chapter.
But the priority: 1. Catatatumo delta, 2. Maracaibo Gulf, 3. Microwolves.
And we will decide what will be the next, because we have already come up with too long a list of chapters.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 12:13. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: This ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
This is the better variant.


I'll edit the description of the paradise salinopoecilia to remove the sapelko and make a new one for this fish.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I just need the idea of such an animal for the chapter! Thank you!
Ao ao, or pecarry-entelodon - what do think about this name?


Maybe we could call it the ferocious peccary rather than the peccary-entelodon. It would be a more unique name.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:

What do you think to unite your chapter about fig tree and my idea about South Panama, that i decided to call "The Monkeys brotherhood"
http://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-7-1681546986977-00000029-000-10001-0#043.001.001.001 - here I was substantiated the idea and created a list of local animals.
It will be very big fig tree, were will be something like brotherhood between differeant species of monkeys, there also will be fruit eating bats, tree rodents, tree oppossums, and peccary and agouti that will collect fallen fruits and fruit eating birds.


I like it. A chapter showing the sort of harmony that exist between the monkeys in the forests is interesting. We could also make some species of fig wasps to pollinate the tree.

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Пост N: 5090
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 14:48. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I&#..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I'll edit the description of the paradise salinopoecilia to remove the sapelko and make a new one for this fish.


So what would we do with the ideas of these fishes:
A: Itupu-sapelko herbivores fish (itupu - grass in Carib)
B: Amòiky-sapelko - planktonvorus fish (Amòiky means "collect many small objects" in Carib )
C: Ìmempìkiwoto-sapelko small fish eating (Ìmempìki – very small; woto - the name of any fish)
D: woto-sapelko medium fish eating
E: pàporo-sapelko omnivores fish (pàporo - means "everything" in Carib)
F: mari-sapelko snails eating fish (mari - snail)

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe we could call it the ferocious peccary rather than the peccary-entelodon. It would be a more unique name.


I think the name peccary-entelodon clearly describes the essence of the animal.

Also we can use Tupinambis, they will be hunting in the in thickets of predatory tomato.
I found the creature in mithology of guarani, but I can't found how to translate it's name from russian to guarani or english
Скрытый текст

You have had something about such creature in Guarani mithology and what is the correct name of this creature in Guarani?


JOrnitho пишет:

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We could also make some species of fig wasps to pollinate the tree.


Agaonidae are needed!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 16:02. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So wh..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So what would we do with the ideas of these fishes:
A: Itupu-sapelko herbivores fish (itupu - grass in Carib)
B: Amòiky-sapelko - planktonvorus fish (Amòiky means "collect many small objects" in Carib )
C: Ìmempìkiwoto-sapelko small fish eating (Ìmempìki – very small; woto - the name of any fish)
D: woto-sapelko medium fish eating
E: pàporo-sapelko omnivores fish (pàporo - means "everything" in Carib)
F: mari-sapelko snails eating fish (mari - snail)


Maybe we could have some of them being part of a different genus of descendants of livebearers. However, the Amòiky-sapelko already fits the escription of the Paradise salinopoecilia. I could only change the name in the description. The carnivorous (C, D, E, F) could form a genus of piranha-like livebearers, perhaps adapted to salt water.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
You have had something about such creature in Guarani mithology and what is the correct name of this creature in Guarani?


Unfortunately, I didn't find anything about it. However, I'm still searching. There is some mythological creatures of the Guarani in this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guarani_mythology. Maybe we could use some of them for species. The name Teju jaguá would be good for a descendant of the Tupinambi, but it's already the name of a genus of Triassic animals (in Teyujagua). I don't know if we could still use its original version as a common name for this Neocenic lizards, but with a different genus to not have a case of replicated name.

wovoka пишет:

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Agaonidae are needed!


Yes! They are interesting insects!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 15.04.23 21:51. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Un..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Unfortunately, I didn't find anything about it. However, I'm still searching.


I take the information hear in Russian site: https://4stor.ru/kriptozoologiya/90894-yuzhnoamerikanskie-mificheskie-suschestva.html
that mithological creature №21
Скрытый текст


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe we could have some of them being part of a different genus of descendants of livebearers. However, the Amòiky-sapelko already fits the escription of the Paradise salinopoecilia. I could only change the name in the description. The carnivorous (C, D, E, F) could form a genus of piranha-like livebearers, perhaps adapted to salt water.


I need to think about it, I'll answer you tomorrow. Ok?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 02:38. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I tak..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I take the information hear in Russian site: https://4stor.ru/kriptozoologiya/90894-yuzhnoamerikanskie-mificheskie-suschestva.html
that mithological creature №21
Скрытый текст


I still can't find the name of this creature in other sources. Some other Russian sites also call it as Viponi, Viluponyi and Viponyi. The idea for the Tupimanbi's descendant is interesting tough and this site have other creatures that could be good names for Neocene animals.

wovoka пишет:

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I need to think about it, I'll answer you tomorrow. Ok?


Ok!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 12:40. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I f..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I forgot to answer this one! Yes, I think that it's possible to have such forests in this area.


Ok, thank you! It is important information. The only question is whether Rio Salado will exist by the Neocene or will it dry up?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I still can't find the name of this creature in other sources. Some other Russian sites also call it as Viponi, Viluponyi and Viponyi.


Maybe there a mistake? Maybe it's creature is from mythology of other south american indians? I think I just call it in guarani teju tomáte

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
this site have other creatures that could be good names for Neocene animals.


I like the mapuche's kuchivilo - snake-hog (water hog)
https://www.academia.edu/1010882/Etnozoolog%C3%ADa_Mapuche_un_estudio_preliminar
it can be Chilean water peccary.

And now about fishes:

Sapelko can me the name of genus, and the species will have different name

A: Itupu-sapelko herbivores fish (itupu - grass in Carib) - we can cross out this fish and leave only pàporo-sapelko
B: Amòiky-sapelko - planktonvorus fish (Amòiky means "collect many small objects" in Carib) - it can be your Paradise salinopoecilia (but the name you can change to Amòiky-sapelko)
C: Ìmempìkiwoto-sapelko small fish eating (Ìmempìki – very small; woto - the name of any fish) - we can cross out this fish and live only woto-sapelko, small fishes it will be eating while beeing whitebait.
D: woto-sapelko medium fish eating - this fish can became piranha-like livebearers
E: pàporo-sapelko omnivores fish (pàporo - means "everything" in Carib) it can be a little bit bigger than Paradise salinopoecilia
F: mari-sapelko snails eating fish (mari - snail)

pàporo-sapelko (omnivores fish) will be euryhaline species it will be eating not only water animal species but also sea salad in Maracaibo gulf and eating under water at the bottom thick creeping rhizomes of Murenu, rich in starch, and eating underwater mushroom in Catatumbo delta, but Cyculi will be eating pàporo-sapelko to protect waterlily.

mari-sapelko - snails eating fish (mari - snail) could be euryhaline species and will specially swim in the Catatumbo delta to catch a large snail swimming in the water towards the waterlily. Or these snails can eat Ari-Tukunare? And then mari-sapelko we can also cross out! Than Ari-Tukunare should also be euryhaline.

This is my opinion and what do you think?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 14:40. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Ok, t..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Ok, thank you! It is important information. The only question is whether Rio Salado will exist by the Neocene or will it dry up?


We would need to search more about the region through where it flows, then compare with the region during the Neocene. Knowing where the river begins is also important.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe there a mistake? Maybe it's creature is from mythology of other south american indians? I think I just call it in guarani teju tomáte


Hahahaha! We could also call it teju karuyba. It means fruit (yba) eating (karu) lizard (teju). I think that it can be a good name.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
pàporo-sapelko (omnivores fish) will be euryhaline species it will be eating not only water animal species but also sea salad in Maracaibo gulf and eating under water at the bottom thick creeping rhizomes of Murenu, rich in starch, and eating underwater mushroom in Catatumbo delta, but Cyculi will be eating pàporo-sapelko to protect waterlily.


Since it's omnivorous, the Pàporo-sapelko could be similar to the Metynnis (silver dollars).

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
mari-sapelko - snails eating fish (mari - snail) could be euryhaline species and will specially swim in the Catatumbo delta to catch a large snail swimming in the water towards the waterlily. Or these snails can eat Ari-Tukunare? And then mari-sapelko we can also cross out! Than Ari-Tukunare should also be euryhaline.


I think that the Ari-Tukunare is enough to fill this niche. We could leave the Mari-sapelko for other chapter and region.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 14:57. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Than ..


wovoka пишет:

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Than Ari-Tukunare should also be euryhaline.


I added these informations to the Ari-Tukunare's description.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 03:19. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Are t..


wovoka пишет:

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Are there any gallery forests on the banks of the Rio Salado as she crosses the Chaco region?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salado_River_(Argentina)
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Austral


I forgot to answer this one! Yes, I think that it's possible to have such forests in this area.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 16:23. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: We ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We would need to search more about the region through where it flows, then compare with the region during the Neocene. Knowing where the river begins is also important.


Let's think it will not dry up!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:

Hahahaha! We could also call it


Or Teju karutomáte

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Since it's omnivorous, the Pàporo-sapelko could be similar to the Metynnis (silver dollars).


Yes, I think it could!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that the Ari-Tukunare is enough to fill this niche. We could leave the Mari-sapelko for other chapter and region.


I agree!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I added these informations to the Ari-Tukunare's description.


Thank you!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 21:29. Заголовок: I finished the descr..


I finished the description of the woto-sapelko. What woto means? I need to add this information in the description.

Wotowentame-sapelko, or Marine piranha-like livebearer (Parapygocentrus puniceus)
Order: Cyprinodontiformes
Family: Parapygocentridae
Habitat:Tropical areas of the Atlantic Ocean, coastal waters and mangroves of South America.
The Planktonic Collapse during the transition between the Holocene and Neocene had left several niches empty. Such a vacuum allowed new species to evolve to fill them. In such a scenario of empty niches, the livebearers (Poecilia) had a great diversification, with some becoming totally marine. One case is that of the the piranha-like livebearers, part of the new family, Parapygocentridae. While they are physically similar to the piranhas of the genus Pygocentrus, these livebearers are well adapted to the saltwater. One of the representatives of this group is the Wotowentame-sapelko, an inhabitant of the Tropical areas of the Atlantic Ocean, mainly in the coastal waters and mangroves of South America. Its name is formed by three words of the Carib language: woto (fish), wentame (eat) and sapelko ( the name of the Poecilia parae).
The Wotowentame-sapelko have a length ranging from 35 to 50 cm, with females being larger than the males. Their body is rounded and pressed in the sides, giving it a disk-shape. They are gray with silver-flecked scales, being darker in the upperparts. The females have translucent fins with small red tinges. In the males, the fins are bright red. The anal fin is located after the anus, in the female it is pointed-triangular. In the male it is transformed into a tubular copulatory organ (gonopodia). Pelvic fins are slightly in front of anus, triangular and reduced. They are smaller in the male than female.
The most impressive characteristic of this species are their razor-shaped teeth present in their mandible and jaw. These modified teeth allow them not only to eat plant material and algae, but also small fishes, crustaceans and squids. They are also scavengers, feeding off dead animals in the water. They locate dead and severely wounded prey through the smell.
Wotowentame-sapelko live in groups but do not hunt in groups. However, like true piranhas, they can occasionally enter into feeding frenzies. In these cases, schools of these fishes will converge on one large prey, usually one that is wounded. individual and eat it within minutes. These attacks are usually extremely rare and are mostly due to starvation.
They are polyandrous and breed all year round, with pregnancy lasting one month. A mature female gives birth to up to 100 tiny fry that are left to fend for themselves. Because of their predatory lifestyle, these piranha-like livebearers are more inclined to show cannibalism. Thus, all the young leave the school after birth.
The fry hide in thickets of algae and water plants and grow rapidly, with three months they already have a length of 15 cm and start to gather in groups. They reach sexual maturity at the age of 10 months for males and one year for females. They have a lifespan of 7 to 15 years, but many are preyed upon before reaching this age.
The pàporowentame-sapelko, or lesser piranha-like livebearer (Parapygocentrus nefarius) is another representative of this genus. They are small, with a size ranging from 15 to 20 cm. Pàporo means everything in Carib lamguage. Their body is rounded and pressed in the sides, giving it a disk-shape. They are gray with silver-flecked scales, being darker in the upperparts. The females have translucent fins with small yellow tinges. In the males, the fins are bright yellow. They inhabit the same regions that the Woto-sapelko, but their diet is different from those of their close relatives. These fishes can eat plant material, small crustaceans and fry, but they also feed on parasites and algae attached to larger marine animals. They’ll approach these animals in small schools and start cleaning them. However, their “good intentions” can become “villainous”. These fishes will occasionally pull scales and large pieces of meat.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 21:34. Заголовок: woto - the name of a..


woto - the name of any fish in carib language

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 21:36. Заголовок: Interesting fish!..


Interesting fish!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 21:44. Заголовок: May be fe should ren..


May be fe should rename the fishes wotowentame-sapelko? (woto - the name of any fish in carib language, wentame - eat in carib languge), so the name will be translating fisheating sapelko.
And pàporowentame-sapelko (that's will be meaning omnivourus sapelko)

Very good fishes!!!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 16.04.23 23:14. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

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May be fe should rename the fishes wotowentame-sapelko? (woto - the name of any fish in carib language, wentame - eat in carib languge), so the name will be translating fisheating sapelko.
And pàporowentame-sapelko (that's will be meaning omnivourus sapelko)


Good idea! I'll edit the description with these changes.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 20.04.23 15:35. Заголовок: So we have to descri..


So we have to describe:
1. Parerejài (bat in carib) - Dermanura phaeotis, could drink nectar of the water lilies, hunt some insects and occasionally eat the seeds and fruits of waterlily.
2. Korònaka taporoporo (undewater little mouse in carib) - Sigmodontomys alfari, small species of semi-aquatic rodent visiting the water lilies during the night in search of seeds and fruits, they could also be able to crack the armor of the Knight beetles.
3. Tukutuku (owl in carib) - an owl, that will hunt on water and other animals: water rodent, frog, crab, bat, Ai-Karala and even fishes. The ancestor Glaucidium brasilianum. It will be like fishing owls of the genera Ketupa or Scotopelia. This owl could dive.
4. Amapejàu - descendant of the Jacana jacana (the name in carib language) - will be eating frogs.
5. Cyculi or sungrebe-gardener- descendent of sungrebe (Heliornis fulica) (Cyculi - is the name of the bird in Guahibo language)
Скрытый текст

6. Arakaka - Guiana wood turtle, scorpion mud turtle, galap (Rhinoclemmys punctularia) - sometimes found in Lake Maracaibo, we can give this name arakaka to Rhinoclemmys diademata (the endemic of Maracaibo) (I'll describe)
7. Poporu (frog in carib) - Pipa parva. Poporu will also try to oviposite on leaves of Murenu before eating caviar of Apeina, Amapejàu will hunt the Poporu just in time when it's spawning. Cyculi and Amapejàu will not be aggressive to each other. Poporu also will be the food for Kotooro and Arakaka.
8. Kariwiri - the Carib name off unknown fish from the Characidae family, this name we will give to scooling cardinal tetra. will be anadromous will lay eggs in fresh water
9. Apeina - (what means stream in carib language) archer fish-like ciclid (the ancestor will be Andinoacara pulcher very beautiful local fish with local name Acara, that mean stream)

Invertebrates
10. Parare - mantid in Carib language. undescribed
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11. Maba - in arawak language called Melipona favosa what is translated honey will pollinate Mureru undescribed (I will describe)
12. Mureru tano, or Knight beetle. - the biggest waterlilia Victoria Amazonica is pollinated by beetles Cyclocephala hardyi, will pollinate Mureru https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2803590/ and will have exosceleton like an ant Acromyrmex echinatior - it has something like knight metal armor - biomineral exoskeleton with CaMg(CO3)2 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19566-3
13. Kiwisukiri (carib language of unknown snail) for Catatumbo delta snail Pomacea canaliculata which will eat the leaves of waterlily and oviposite in it's leaves. The Kotooro will eats the snail, the fry of Apeina will eat it's eggs.

Plants
14. Ocumo - Xanthosoma sagittifolium - with edible leaves, stems and tubers. Huge thickets of this plant will grow around the entire lake and all local herbivores will come to eat it, especially barocavias and cabiai-pyinko. Ocumo is the name of this plant in Panare language, which belongs to the Carib family.
15. Mureru - waterlily in Carib, descendant usual Nymphaea alba invasive from Europe but it can evolve to the form of Victoria amazonica.

17. Tuna sapipi - (tuna - water in carib and sapipi - means mushroom in carib).
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JOrnitho



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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 20.04.23 16:12. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So we..


wovoka пишет:

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So we have to describe:


I'll describe the vertebrates, but I'm not sure if my description of plants and insects would be good. Perhaps someone else could do that?

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wovoka
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 20.04.23 21:10. Заголовок: I'll see what co..


I'll see what could I do. But the description of waterlily and undewater mushroom will be difficult. Biolog could help, but unfortunately he left the forum.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 05:18. Заголовок: I finished the descr..


I finished the description of the diving mouse. I'll work in the one of the bat tomorrow.

Korònaka taporoporo, or little diving mouse (Neustomys nigripes)
Order:Rodentia
Family:Cricetidae
Habitat: Catatumbo Delta, water reeds and other aquatic vegetation.
For the survivors of the extinctions of the Holocene, the Neocene gave the opportunity for them to evolve into new species. The Alfaro's rice water rat (Sigmodontomys alfari) was one of these survivors. It’s the ancestor of the Korònaka taporoporo, a rodent adapted to live in the flooded areas of the Catatumbo Delta, making its nests in the aquatic vegetation. In carib language, its name means underwater little mouse. Such name perfectly matches their lifestyle: these animals are capable of diving underwater to search for food and to escape from predators.
The Korònaka taporoporo is a very small rodent, with an adult length of 9 to 10 cm, not including the tail, which have the same length as the body. Their dorsal fur is dark gray, while the ventral is white. The tail has very short fur, becoming white in the basal part. The scales become visible in the distal part. They have well developed interdigital membranes and short ungual tufts. The upper part of the feet are covered by dark gray hair. The females have four pairs of mamae.
This rodent takes both vegetable and animal food, and is more carnivorous than most small rodents are. They feed on seeds, fruits and sprouts of water plants, but have more preference for small fishes, snails, crustaceans and fry. To reach these prey, the Korònaka taporoporo will dive after them. They are accomplished and willing swimmers, easily swimming more than 10 m under water. They'll often seek safety in the water when alarmed, jumping from vegetation directly on it.
Korònaka taporoporo are active during the night, expending the day resting in their nests, which are made of sedge and grass, about 13 cm large and placed high in aquatic vegetation. They are aggressive towards conspecifics and emit high-pitched squeaks while fighting. These rodents only tolerate each other when breeding, but the female will chase the male away shortly after copulating. They breed during the entire year, but more births happen during the dry season.
After a gestation of about 25 days, three to five young are usually born, although litter sizes vary from one to seven. Females may have up to ten litters a year. Newborns are blind and almost naked. The external ears soon unfold and on the first day, claws are visible and the young emit high-pitched squeaks. On the second day, they are able to crawl, and during the third to fifth days, the whiskers and eyelids develop. On the two subsequent days, the mammae and incisors become visible and the animals become more active. Between the eighth and 11th days, the eyes open, the fur develops, and the young begin to take solid food. Weaning occurs on the 11th to 20th day, and they become independent after the 30th day. Sexual activity commences when the animals are about 50 to 60 days old. Their lifespan is less than a year.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 12:41. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good and o..


JOrnitho
Good and original animal!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 06:42. Заголовок: Very interesting rod..


Very interesting rodent!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 13:14. Заголовок: JOrnitho, You were..


JOrnitho,

You were writing:

 цитата:
What do you think if there is relationship between the bat and the mouse when feeding of this fruit? The skin of the fruit could be a bit thick, taking so much effort of the bats to open it. The rodent would come first, openning the skin. Then the bats would consume the rest that was left open. In this case the consumption of these fruits would be more opportunistic.


May be it can be some other forms of symbiosis between bat and underwater rodent?

Or we can think about it, when I describe a waterlily?

Now I'm trying to describe the malanga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthosoma_sagittifolium
But it a little bit difficult, because I'm not botanist.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 14:10. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be it can be some other forms of symbiosis between bat and underwater rodent?


I was going to add it in the bat's description, but we can think in other things besides this one. Do you have any idea? Maybe the bats can use abandoned mouse's nests by enlarging them?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 14:23. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Now ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:

Now I'm trying to describe the malanga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthosoma_sagittifolium
But it a little bit difficult, because I'm not botanist.


I also struggle with the description of plants. What do you want to do with it? Any characteristic different from their ancestors?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 15:23. Заголовок: Interesting rodent!..


Interesting rodent!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 15:24. Заголовок: Well, all the new ch..


Well, all the new characteristics of waterlily we have already discussed, may be you will describe it? Or better I will do it? About malanga I'm now collecting information. First of all I want to make its fruits eadible by parrots, because now they are poisoned for the birds. Other new characteristics I haven't yet come up with.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 15:51. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Do ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Do you have any idea?


If I make the fruits and seeds of malanga edible, the bat can collect them and thrown into the water, this will attract fry, and then the underwater mouse and the bat can catch fry together, one grabbing from under the water and the other from the air, preventing the fry from escaping.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 17:48. Заголовок: If I make the fruits..



 цитата:
If I make the fruits and seeds of malanga edible, the bat can collect them and thrown into the water, this will attract fry, and then the underwater mouse and the bat can catch fry together, one grabbing from under the water and the other from the air, preventing the fry from escaping.


Very interesting!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 20:24. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Well,..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Well, all the new characteristics of waterlily we have already discussed, may be you will describe it? Or better I will do it? About malanga I'm now collecting information. First of all I want to make its fruits eadible by parrots, because now they are poisoned for the birds. Other new characteristics I haven't yet come up with.


What do you think of a parrot becoming imune to its toxins? It could be a descendant of the Forpus spengeli or Forpus modestus. Perhaps they could retain the toxins in their meat and and feather, becoming dangerous for predators to eat them. They could even become more colorful as an alert of its toxicity.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
If I make the fruits and seeds of malanga edible, the bat can collect them and thrown into the water, this will attract fry, and then the underwater mouse and the bat can catch fry together, one grabbing from under the water and the other from the air, preventing the fry from escaping.


Perhaps all the animals feeding of these fruits have some tolerance to the toxins in these plants? COuld be interesting to have an entire faunal group that became adaptedto survive around the waterlilies.
The idea of the bat and mouse hunting fish togehter is interesting, but it would need us to have another species of bat. The ancestor could be the Noctilio albiventris.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.04.23 22:45. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: hav..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
have an entire faunal group that became adaptedto survive around the waterlilies.


Malanga it's not waterlily its this plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthosoma_sagittifolium
It's almost edible, except fruits.

Yes, it is VERY interesting ideas, but we have already TOO MUCH species for both chapters. Let us stop on it. I wanted to described the new bee pollinator of Malanga: Euglossa imperialis or Eulaema cingulata, but i decided to stop on one bee, that would pollinate and waterlily, and malanga.
Artibeus phaeotis can eat nectar and insects, than it can learn to eat fry. Or let find such omnivourus bat that can eat nectar, fruits, seads, insects and fry. Or we should make such bat!
Pionus menstruus - we make him eating crabs and shellfish, but now it is fruit and seed eating parrot, than it can eat fruits and seeds of Malanga. But I can make the seeds of Malanga a little bit less toxic. And than a parrot and the bat and even fry of some fishes eating this seeds will be a little toxic for predators and become more colorful as an alert of its toxicity.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 24.04.23 01:31. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Malan..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Malanga it's not waterlily its this plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthosoma_sagittifolium
It's almost edible, except fruits.


Oh, I confused with the water lily. In this case, it'll not affect our original idea for the rodent.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Pionus menstruus - we make him eating crabs and shellfish, but now it is fruit and seed eating parrot, than it can eat fruits and seeds of Malanga. But I can make the seeds of Malanga a little bit less toxic. And than a parrot and the bat and even fry of some fishes eating this seeds will be a little toxic for predators and become more colorful as an alert of its toxicity.


I think that we should leave the Pionus menstruus as the crustacean eating parrot. Then the parrot eating seeds and fruits (maybe imune to the poison) should be another species. If this species can't appear in the chapter, we can still make it. I like the idea of a poisonous parrot.
The bat could remain the same species, but become more opportunist and can catch fish. Like how you proposed.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 24.04.23 20:46. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that we should leave the Pionus menstruus as the crustacean eating parrot.


Ок.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The bat could remain the same species, but become more opportunist and can catch fish. Like how you proposed.


Agreed!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Then the parrot eating seeds and fruits (maybe imune to the poison) should be another species. If this species can't appear in the chapter, we can still make it. I like the idea of a poisonous parrot.


Unfortunately, I still do not know the nature of the toxin, it is possible that it is dangerous only for the parrot that eats the fruit, but it is safe for the predator that will eat the poisoned parrot. So the idea with a poisonous parrot may not work (((

But in the forests of South America there are a huge number of really poisonous plants, so you can realize the idea of ​​a poisonous parrot that has learned to eat the poisonous fruits of one or another poisonous plant anywhere on the continent. But we can't place it in the chapter for sure. The bestiary is really too overloaded.

Unfortunately, I'll be very busy this week, so I won't be able to describe the plant until next week.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.04.23 00:25. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But i..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But in the forests of South America there are a huge number of really poisonous plants, so you can realize the idea of ​​a poisonous parrot that has learned to eat the poisonous fruits of one or another poisonous plant anywhere on the continent. But we can't place it in the chapter for sure. The bestiary is really too overloaded.


I'll search for plants that could have fruits with toxins and their possible association with parrots.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Unfortunately, I'll be very busy this week, so I won't be able to describe the plant until next week.


Ok! I'll work in the description of the bats.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.04.23 08:20. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I&#..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I'll search for plants that could have fruits with toxins and their possible association with parrots.


Ок!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Ok! I'll work in the description of the bats.


Thank you!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.04.23 19:45. Заголовок: I finished the Parer..


I finished the Parerejai. I decided to change the ancestor for the Carollia perspicillata because it feeds from fruits, nectar and insects. This way it would fit our ideas for the chapter. Anyone have a good english name for it? I thought it could have one too.


Parerejài (Parerejai marcrotis)
Order:Chiroptera
Family:Phyllostomidae
Habitat:Northern South America, flooded forests, marshlands and woodlands with slow rivers.
The Seba's short-tailed bat (Carollia perspicillata) was an opportunistic bat that inhabited the tropical forests of South America. The Parerejài, their descendants in the Neocene, continued to have a similar lifestyle. Inhabiting forests and marshlands of Northern South America, this bat feeds primarily on fruits, but opportunistically it'll eat insects, nectar, even fry and tadpoles. In Carib language, Parerejài means bat.
This species has 10 to 15 cm of length. Unlike other bats, the female Parerejài is 30% larger and heavier than the male. They have greyish-brown fur over its upper body, with pale gray underparts and dark brown wing and tail membranes. It has long ears, a short muzzle, and a pointed triangular nose leaf.
While most of its diet consists of fruits, nectar and insects will be consumed if the opportunity arises. They can bring back smaller fruit to their roosts, but will eat bigger fruits at the tree. Females will become more carnivorous when they are pregnant and nursing young. Some individuals will even visit vegetation near the water to hunt the fry that hide there. These females will wait in the vegetation for the young fish to reach the surface to eat plant material before pouncing and killing them. Some learned that by dropping fruits and seeds in such places, the fry will be attracted and come close. A similar strategy is used when they hunt tadpoles.
Parerejái lives in colonies of 20 to 100 individuals in hollow trees and caves. These large colonies are formed by well delimited harems formed by a male, 10 to fifteen females and their offspring. The male defend their harem from others aggressively. They will roost during the day, and will forage at night. Foraging happens between nightfall and midnight, with females being active during the first half, while males during the whole period. Besides the harem, the colonies also gave bachelor roosts. Bachelor roosts are used by males without harems, with females joining seasonally.
Males are territorial of their roosts, and will often fight other intruding males by means of boxing. Males follow a pattern of behavioral stages before fighting. This entails ear movements, head lifts, neck craning, wing unfolding, punch mimicking, and finally boxing with each other. Even though this is aggressive behavior, either male is allowed to stop fighting and leave the conflict, and injuries usually aren't worse than a few scrapes and bruises.
Males will actively try to recruit females to mate with for their harems through the use of vocalization and hovering. This species reproduces during the entire year, but there is an increase in the births during the rainy season. Gestation periods are about 120 days, and young are born precocial. Newborns grow quickly, and reach full adult body weight after about 10–13 weeks, and will usually leave the parental harem after about 16 weeks. All females will reach sexual maturity by the time they're one year old, and males will reach sexual maturity within the first two years of being born. Mothers will communicate with their offspring through vocalization, with a mother being capable of discriminating between the calls of its offspring and the offspring of other females. They exhibit more maternal approach behaviors when hearing the calls of their own offspring, and more experienced mothers show more approach behavior as opposed to new mothers. However, this behavior isn't the same in males, who instead take a different approach to hearing the calls of their offspring. Differently of other bats, they are capable of recognizing their young. The sound of their vocalization will prompt the male to harass the mothers until they go to take care of the young, but won't go to attend to the young themselves. The Parerejai have a lifespan of 10 years, but many individuals perish in the first two years.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.04.23 21:05. Заголовок: Interesting bat! How..


Interesting bat!

 цитата:
However, this behavior isn't the same in males, who instead take a different approach to hearing the calls of their offspring. They will harass the mothers until they go to take care of the young, but won't go to attend to the young themselves.


Do any modern bats demonstrate such behaviour?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.04.23 21:52. Заголовок: медведь пишет: Do a..


медведь пишет:

 цитата:
Do any modern bats demonstrate such behaviour?


Yes, the Carollia perspicillata.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.04.23 22:37. Заголовок: Thanks! Could you gi..


Thanks! Could you give me any links?

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медведь пишет:

 цитата:
Thanks! Could you give me any links?


I think that I'll remove this information, though. Some articles said that males do it, but others say that they don't do it. Do you think that this Neocenic species could develop such habit?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.04.23 23:30. Заголовок: Very interesting bat..


Very interesting bat!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.04.23 09:36. Заголовок: I think that I'l..



 цитата:
I think that I'll remove this information, though. Some articles said that males do it, but others say that they don't do it. Do you think that this Neocenic species could develop such habit?


May be, but could you still search for more information on that?

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медведь пишет:

 цитата:
May be, but could you still search for more information on that?


Yes, I can.

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медведь пишет:

 цитата:
May be, but could you still search for more information on that?


I found another article that says that they observed males poking females when her young started to vocalize, then the mother flew to it. While the article is old, such a characteristic would be interesting to have in one of the Neocene animals. So, I thought that the large colonies of the Parerejai would be formed by several well delimited small harems of one dominant male and ten to fifteen females. Inside these small groups, the males will fight rivals that try to enter their harem and would also recognise the vocalization of their young. What do you think?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.23 08:44. Заголовок: I found another arti..



 цитата:
I found another article that says that they observed males poking females when her young started to vocalize, then the mother flew to it. While the article is old, such a characteristic would be interesting to have in one of the Neocene animals. So, I thought that the large colonies of the Parerejai would be formed by several well delimited small harems of one dominant male and ten to fifteen females. Inside these small groups, the males will fight rivals that try to enter their harem and would also recognise the vocalization of their young. What do you think?


It would be interesting!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.23 14:51. Заголовок: медведь пишет: It w..


медведь пишет:

 цитата:
It would be interesting!


Ok! I added these new information in the description.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.04.23 22:28. Заголовок: Yes, it's really..


Yes, it's really interesting.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.23 04:40. Заголовок: I finished the descr..


I finished the description of the Tukutuku and of the jacana. wovoka, I made the owl as part of the genus that I proposed sometime ago, but used your suggestions of it also hunting other things rather than only fish. What do you think that I could add in its description to make this species even more singular if compared to the others of the genus?


Tukutuku, or screaming nhakurutukutu (Piscatostrix vocifer)
Order:Strigiformes
Family:Strigidae
Habitat: Northern South America, forests and woodlands.
The human actions in the Holocene caused many impacts in the ecosystems. Because of these actions, many species went extinct in the Neocene. However some species survived and gave rise to descendants that exploited many new niches. One of them is the genus Piscatostrix, birds that are descendants of the crested owl (Lophostrix cristata). Birds of this genus, known as the nhakurutukutus, are capable of catching fish and inhabit much of the forested areas of South America. Among the representatives of this genus is the Tukutuku, an inhabitant of the Northern forests of the continent. In the Carib language, Tukutuku means owl.
These birds have 40 cm of length and a wingspan of 79 cm. The females are slightly larger than the males. Their plumage is buff brown with darker tawny brown feathers on the back. The underparts are pale gray, with dark brown barring. The facial disk is light brown and their ear tuffs are white and long. The beak and legs are dark gray.
The Tukutuku eats more mammals and reptiles than other members of the genus Piscatostrix. Such non dependence on aquatic animals, allow the owl to live in areas that are away from the water and to survive in long dry periods. However, much of their diet still consists of fishes. Other aquatic animals such as frogs, freshwater crustaceans and large insects are also eaten.
This species nest during the dry season, which has the benefit of lower, clearer water and thus more easily detectable fish. They are monogamous and territorial, claiming a stretch of river or lakeshore for themselves. Territories are claimed by a loud scream-like hooting at the start of the breeding season. They are far more vocal than the other members of the genus, with the male and female constantly vocalizing to each other while they are foraging separated. The nest is a natural hollow or cavity in an old shady tree close to the water, quite often around where thick branches emerge from the trunk. The clutch size is typically one or two white eggs. The female lays the eggs when water's at its peak or starting to fall, so that brood feeding coincides with low water and concentrated prey. The female does all incubation for around 32 days, while the male feeds her. If there is more than one egg, hatching occurs at 5 day intervals. The second chick often disappears, probably due to starvation and fratricide. The young fledge within 53 days and remain in their parent's territory for 6 to 9 months after fledging and resemble the adult by around 10 months of age. At the first sight of danger to their offspring, both parents may engage in distraction displays. In these displays, the parents become slim and erect their ear tufts high, the wings are stretched and they produce a sound similar to a scream. This species reaches sexual maturity within 4 years and their lifespan is 28 years.

Amapejàu, or shielded jacana (Jacana scutocardia)

Order:Charadriiformes 

Family:Jacanidae

Habitat:Wetlands of Tropical South America.

While the transition between the Neocene and the Holocene caused the extinction of many species, others remained alive and continued to evolve. Some animals changed completely to fill new niches, but others continued with the same of their ancestors. The Amapejàu is one of these cases. This bird is a descendant of the wattled jacana (Jacana jacana) and had inherited the lifestyle of its ancestor. It inhabits the wetlands of Tropical South America. In Carib language the word Amapejáu was used to name its ancestor.

The Amapejàu have 19 to 25 cm of body length and a wingspan ranging between 40 and 45 cm. This species has a great degree of sexual dimorphism, with females being larger than the males. The females also have a bright red head shield that grows to have a heart-like shape. In males, this head shield is pale red and very short. The plumage of both are similar, with a dark brown back and wing coverts, with the rest of the body being white. In flight the bright yellow flight feathers are obvious. Also visible are red bony spurs on the leading edge of the wings, which it can use to defend itself and its young. These structures are larger and sharper in the females. The yellow bill extends up at the head-shield, and the legs and very long toes are black.

The diet of this species is very similar to that of their ancestors. The Amapejàu feeds on insects, mollusks, small fishes and frogs. They hunt their prey by moving through the floating vegetation of their habitats, usually in waterlilies.

Female Amapejàus are polyandrous, forming harems of at least five males in their territory. Different from what happens in other birds, it’s the females that pursue and fight over males. Upon finding a male, the female will stand in front of him while her wings are open. Then, she’ll bow until he can have a good sight of her heart-shaped head shield. If he approves, the male will mimic her movements.

Females are aggressive against each other, flying directly at them while vocalizing loudly. After landing, to intimidate the invader, they keep their wings open and stretched upwards, showing the long, yellow feathers on the wings. In this posture, the spur appears at the wings. Through these attitudes, they intimidate the invading bird. Occasionally, fights will occur. 

The male is solely responsible for incubating the eggs and chick-rearing activities. The females stay most of the time patrolling their territory against trespassers. It wasn’t uncommon for a rival female to subdue a male and remove him from a nest before proceeding to destroy the eggs. The male will proceed to mate with her. Thus the owner of the territory needs to be very protective. Four eggs are laid in nests formed by stems of aquatic, floating plants. The male will incubate them for 28 days. Newly hatched chicks walk over vegetation the first day after hatching and soon lose the white down on their belly and brown on their back. Sexual maturity is reached 6 months and they have a lifespan of 9 years.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.23 09:57. Заголовок: JOrnitho They'r..


JOrnitho
They're good, but I think that word "nhakurutukutu" is too big and quite unspellable. Can you remove it?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.23 10:03. Заголовок: Interesting birds!..


Interesting birds!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.23 13:14. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: They..


лягушка пишет:

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They're good, but I think that word "nhakurutukutu" is too big and quite unspellable. Can you remove it?


Yes, but it’s owl in Tupi-guarani language. I thought that it could be a homage for one of the native people of South America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.05.23 17:44. Заголовок: Very good birds! :sm..


Very good birds!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.05.23 17:34. Заголовок: I finished the descr..


I finished the descriptions of the cyculi, poporo and apeina.

Cyculi, or sungrebe-gardener (Heliornis kepofilus)
Order:Gruiformes
Family:Heliornithidae
Habitat: Northern South America, wetlands and flooded forests with slow moving rivers where Mureru water lilies can grow.
The human actions in the Holocene caused many impacts in the ecosystems. Because of these actions, many species went extinct in the Neocene. However some species survived and gave rise to descendants. While some diverged from the niches once filled by their ancestors, others remained very similar to their predecessors. One of these cases is the Cyculi, a descendent of the sungrebe (Heliornis fulica) that inhabits wetlands and flooded forests of Northern South America. In the Guahibo language, Cyculi means sungrebe.
The Cyculi have between 30 to 37 cm of length and a wingspan of 50 to 55 cm. The females are larger than the males. Like their ancestors, these birds have lobed toes. The bare skin of their feet and legs are boldly banded in red and black. The body plumage is mostly reddish brown, while having a striking black and white head and neck pattern, as well as a black strip coming down from the throat to the chin. The long tail extends well beyond the body in flight, and sits fanned out on or just below the surface of the water while the bird swims. Females have a pale brown patch on the cheeks that brightens to reddish-brown during the breeding season. They have pale red beaks that become bright in the females during the mating season.
Like their ancestors, the male Cyculi have a pouch that is a shallow, ovular pocket formed by pleats of well-muscled skin that extend along the side of the chest under the wings, further buffered by a wall of long, curved feathers growing upwards and backwards from the lower part of the side of the chest. These feathers hold chicks in place during movement, even allowing a male to carry them while diving and flying. The bird have some muscular control over the shape of the pleats, and can restrict or enhance fluid flow into the tissue to make them more or less rigid. Each pouch can hold one or two chicks.
While this species is omnivorous, they have a preference for seeds, mainly those of the Mureru water lilies, being the main responsible for dispersing its seeds. These seeds are covered by a sweet shell that is digested in the stomach of the Cyculi, and the seeds themselves will ripen under the influence of enzymes in its stomach. Without the sungrebe, the water lily will not be able to spread. The bird, depending on these seeds, will protect the plant from overgrowth by other aquatic plants and algae, eating them so that they do not clog the Mureru. They will also hunt snails and a variety of aquatic arthropods, as well as small fishes that try to eat the water lily.
The sungrebe has a mating season that begins in the early wet season. The females court the males, while the males are the main caretakers of the chicks. Both the male and female birds take part in the nest building, which typically consists of twigs, reeds, and dried leaves. The nest is a flimsy platform placed about a meter above the water's surface, close to agglomerations of Mureru water lilies.
There are usually two to four eggs in a clutch. They are round in shape with a buffy white to pale cinnamon base color, with irregularly-shaped dark cinnamon, ruddy brown, and pale purple spots scattered uniformly over the surface. The eggs hatch after an unusually short incubation period of only 10 to 11 days. Both sexes share responsibility in the incubation of the eggs; the female sits on the nest for most of the daylight hours and throughout the night, while male incubates them during the middle part of the day. The chicks are altricial upon hatching, blind and defenseless with only sparse down and poorly mature feet and bill. They are covered with fuzzy down that is countershaded slate-gray with a white belly and throat. The bill is slate-gray with a pale yellow tip.
Males transfer the young to their pouches soon after hatching and keep them there, feeding them and cleaning out their waste, until they are able to swim and feed independently. For some period of time after this, the chicks continue to follow their parents, often riding on their back. The chicks leave their parents after three months and the partnership between the male and female ends during this period. Sexual maturity is reached within 8 months and they have a lifespan of 10 years.



Poporu, or Catatumbo Surinam toad (Pipa poporu)
Order:Anura
Family:Pipidae
Habitat: Endemic to the Catatumbo River in Northern South America
The human actions in the Holocene caused many impacts in the ecosystems. Because of these actions, many species went extinct in the Neocene. However some species survived and gave rise to descendants. One of these survivors was the Sabana Surinam toad (Pipa parva), which gave rise to the Poporu. An endemic species of the Catatumbo River, this amphibian has a close relationship with the Mureru water lily, not only using the leaves of this plant to lay their eggs, but also inhabiting around its leaves. In the Carib Language, Poporu means frog.
The Poporu is a strictly aquatic frog with a depressed body, almost entirely flat and with a broad, flat, triangular head. The feet are broadly webbed with the front toes having small, star-like appendages. Males can grow up to 140 mm long, whereas females can reach up to 170 mm. Females can be distinguished not only by their length but also by their ring-shaped cloacas, visible when they are ready to breed. The skin color is mostly dark brown with some yellowish spots on the back, which is similar to the color of a decaying Mureru’s leaf. It provides good camouflage, both against predators and to hunt prey. Nostrils are terminal, eyes very small, and the tympanum is missing. The limbs are in a laterally sprawled position in the plane of the body, and the fingertips are modified into four small lobes. Like all Pipidae, they lack tongues. Its absence prevents the species from capturing prey with that organ like most other frogs, and instead suction capture is used.
The species is an omnivorous ambush hunter. Its diet consists mostly of invertebrates, such as worms, insects, crustaceans and small fish. It hiddens among the leaves of Mureru, before jumping over the prey and swallowing them through a bidirectional suction mechanism where the amount of water ingested is influenced by the ability for the frog to actively increase its body volume. When it captures prey, its buccopharyngeal cavity (the cavity connecting the mouth and the pharynx) is very distensible and can expand substantially. It has the ability to use its entire trunk to rapidly enlarge its buccopharyngeal cavity and expand into the lower end of the trunk.
The mating period of these frogs is during the fall and winter seasons. These frogs call usually during the morning and mid-afternoon hours. Males of this species do not attract females with croaks, instead producing a sharp clicking sound by snapping the hyoid bone in their throats. The clicking sound resembles metallic noises. The average rate of these clicks is four clicks per second, consisting of blocks of 10 to 20 seconds per period.Thereafter, the male will grab the front legs of the female in amplexus, causing the cloaca and the skin of the female to swell. The partners rise from the floor while in amplexus and flip through the water in arcs. The couple will swim around in the water until they have to swim to the surface to breathe. Afterwards, they will swim back down to the bottom of the water. There the male will lay on his back, with the female on top of him on her stomach. During the amplexus, the female's back is gradually swelled to a puffy condition. The male and female cloacae are brought close together, and many eggs are transferred anteriorly to the female's swollen dorsal epidermis.
Differently from their ancestor, the females do not carry their eggs in the back. They’ll lay the eggs below the leaves of Mureru. Next they cover the eggs with a mucus produced from glands of their skin. Both parents remain watching this nest until the young come out. The embryos develop through to the tadpole stage inside these nests but do not emerge as tadpoles, instead remaining in their chambers until complete development to toadlet stage. After 12 to 20 weeks, the young toads will emerge as small toads, looking identical to their parents. It takes a while for them to grow bigger since they are only 25 mm long when they are born. Once they have emerged, the toads begin a largely solitary life. They have a lifespan of 5 years, but many are eaten by predator before reaching this age.

Red apeina, or Red spitter cichlid (Apeina rubropinnatus)
Order:Cichliformes
Family:Cichlidae
Habitat: Catatumbo River in Northern South America, areas with dense aquatic vegetation. The human actions in the Holocene caused many impacts in the ecosystems. Because of these actions, many species went extinct in the Neocene. However some species survived and gave rise to descendants. One of these survivors was the blue acara (Andinoacara pulcher). In the Neocene, they gave rise to the genus Apeina, the spitter cichlids. Representatives of this genus inhabit several rivers of Northern South America. The red apeina is the type representative of the group and a species endemic to the Catatumbo River. In the Carib language, apeina means stream.
In a case of convergent evolution, the Apeina fishes had evolved to become similar to the archerfishes (Toxotes). They have deep and laterally compressed bodies, with the profile a straight line from dorsal fin to mouth. They also have long, flowing fins with colors that vary according to the species, being this characteristic that allows to differentiate between the species. In the red apeina, the fins are a bright red color. The scales have a steel blue-green color. The male colors become bright during the breeding season. The mouth is protractile, and the lower jaw juts out. Sizes are fairly small, typically up to about 13–18 cm.
All the Apeina fishes are carnivorous, feeding on small crustaceans, fry and insects while their larvae eat phytoplankton and zooplankton. Like the archerfishes, the red apeina is capable of turning water into a projectile from the sudden compression of water from the pharynx into the palatine canal and use their tongue to control the flow. This strategy is used to hunt insects that are out of their reach. When schools of these fishes are hunting together, some individuals will steal the prey of the others once it falls in the water.
They reproduce during the rainy season. During this period they become very territorial, with mated pairs defending a small territory aggressively. The eggs are laid in a breeding chamber that has been dug in the bottom by the female. It’s usually built close to the rhizome of aquatic plants. The eggs are cared for by both parents that take turns to attend them inside the chamber. While one is inside, the other will remain outside defending the entrances. The eggs hatch after 5 weeks and both parents care for the young and defend them and the juveniles remain gregarious when independent of their parents. Sexual maturity is reached with 7 months and this species has a lifespan of 7 years, but predators will kill many of the young fishes.
The yellow apeina, or yellow spitter cichlid (Apeina xanthopinnatus) is another representative of the genus. Besides being slightly larger than the red apeina, with a length ranging from 14 to 19 cm, and inhabiting slow flowing rivers of the central Amazon forest, the other characteristic that best differentiate this fish from their relative is the bright yellow color of its fins.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.05.23 20:13. Заголовок: Interesting animals!..


Interesting animals!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.05.23 18:18. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good and i..


JOrnitho
Good and interesting animals!
Оффтоп: как мне переводить слово cyculi? Сикули, кикули или цикули?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.05.23 21:31. Заголовок: Very interesting ani..


Very interesting animals, very cool descriptions!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.05.23 11:35. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Оффт..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Оффтоп: как мне переводить слово cyculi? Сикули, кикули или цикули?


На сколько мне удалось выяснить, то правильно Кикули.

I was trying to find the name of this bird in Barí language (these indians are living on the banks of Catatumbo river), but unfortunately unsuccessful.
Because Guahibo indians are living far south.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 07.05.23 12:32. Заголовок: wovoka Ок, понятно,..


wovoka
Ок, понятно, спасибо!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 21.05.23 18:34. Заголовок: JOrnitho, I describe..


JOrnitho, I described Arakaka https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1684682947987-00000176-000-10001-0#052 - the description is in Russian.

I remember that I must describe:
1. Parare
2. Maba
3. Mureru tano
4. Kiwisukiri
5. Ocumo
6. Mureru
7. Tuna sapipi

The next will be Kiwisukiri, after it Parare.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 22.05.23 11:50. Заголовок: wovoka Good turtle! ..


wovoka
Good turtle! I have the description of the Parare nearly done. I'll post it later today or tomorrow.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 22.05.23 20:00. Заголовок: I'll finish the ..


I'll finish the description of Kiwisukiri only next week. This week I'll be very busy. The next will be Maba. The most difficult to make descriptions of plants and mushroom.

About Parare, whom are you going to make the ancestor of this mantis: Stagmatoptera septentrionalis or Choeradodis rhombicollis? The last is now living too far from Catatumbo, but may be in neocene it will migrate closer.

I think Parare should look like "hybrid" of Hymenopus coronatus and Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii. Or something like that.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 23.05.23 03:47. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Stagm..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Stagmatoptera septentrionalis


I was going to use this one.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I think Parare should look like "hybrid" of Hymenopus coronatus and Pseudocreobotra wahlbergii.


I agree. I thought that the water lily's flower could have pale pink petals with purple tips, this way the mantis would need to have these colors.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.05.23 23:39. Заголовок: JOrnitho, I describe..


JOrnitho, I described kiwisukiri https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-1-1685133365629-00000024-000-10001-0#022 - here Russian description.

Next will be Maba.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.23 15:25. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I de..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I described kiwisukiri https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-1-1685133365629-00000024-000-10001-0#022 - here Russian description.


Nice! I'll finish the mantis' description today.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.23 16:16. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Nic..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Nice! I'll finish the mantis' description today.



Ok! I'll finish the description of Maba next week and I'll try to describe next week Tuna sapipi.
And then stay Ocumo, Mureru & Mureru tano - the most difficult.
The description of Ocumo I have already started, but there are some difficulties that I need to deal with.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.23 17:33. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: The d..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
The description of Ocumo I have already started, but there are some difficulties that I need to deal with.


Do you need some help?

I finished the Parare's description:

Parare, or purple water lily mantis (Nymphaefilus purpuraceus)
Order:Mantodea
Family: Mantidae
Habitat: Catatumbo River in Northern South America, endemic to the Mureru waterlilies.
While the transition between the Neocene and the Holocene caused the extinction of many species, others remained alive and continued to evolve. The mantis Stagmatoptera septentrionalis had survived and in the Neocene it gave origin to the genus Nymphaefilus, insects specialized to live among different species of aquatic flowers through the use of aggressive mimicry. One of these species, the purple parare, is specialized to live among the purple flowers of the mureru water lily in the Catatumbo River. In Carib language, parare means mantis.
The purple parare is sexually dismorphic, with males being smaller than the females. While a male can be 25 mm long, the female surpasses 32 mm, reaching at least 36 mm. The adult has bold disruptive coloration in pale pink and white that mimics the color of the flowers of the mureru water lily. The four walking legs resemble flower petals, and the toothed front pair is used as in other mantises for grasping prey. All these appendages are purple colored, exactly like the tip of the petals where they live.
This species has a deimatic display in which it spreads its forewings, making itself appear larger and prominently displaying their bright colors to startle would-be predators. While at rest they are well camouflaged, with it being a good enough aggressive mimic of a flower that allows them to prey on insects that can attempt to pollinate it. At this moment, the mantis seizes and eats them. They prefer to prey on flying insects, mostly bees, and spiders, but if unavailable, will eat virtually any insect.
These mantises have strong forearms, and a big appetite while they are growing up, and therefore can handle rather large prey compared to their body sizes. They will not chase after food though, as they are not a very active species. Instead, they prefer to remain completely still, disguised as part of the environment, waiting to strike when an unsuspecting insect comes by.
Like with many mantis species, Parare females practice sexual cannibalism. However, nymphs are not cannibalistic until their fourth instar. Reproduction happens during the entire year. The courtship and mating are separated into two steps: Preliminary courtship begins with the first visual contact between the animals and ends with the first physical contact. Copulation begins with physical contact and ends when the spermatophore is deposited.
Only a few days after the final moult into adults, the animals begin to show interest in the opposite sex, with this point being marked as the achievement of sexual maturity. Instead of just observing them, sexually mature males approach sexually mature females when they see them, but due to the physical superiority of the females, the males face certain challenges in doing so.
When a female spots a male, she is very likely to attack and kill him. Therefore, males can be observed to be very slow and cautious in their approach. After spotting a female, the male usually freezes and turns his head to look directly at her. Since the foveae in his eyes face directly forwards, he has the most accurate and detailed view of her and can watch every one of her moves. He then proceeds to approach her from behind. Males can be observed to stop as soon as the female turns her head or even moves. Using this ‘stop-and-go’ tactic, the male stalks closer to the female. This can often take several hours.
Once the male is close enough to the female, he opens his wings a little to facilitate his jump on the female's back. As soon as he lands, he proceeds to hold on to her with his raptorial legs. When the male is in a secure position, copulation is initiated.
The abdomen of the male curves and twists to insert the claspers between the ovipositor and the sternum. The abdomen of the male then contracts in a peristaltic manner. The animals can stay in this position for four to five hours before a spermatophore is deposited inside the female and the claspers are withdrawn. The male then lets go of the female to drop to the ground to get out of her reach for his own safety. After getting away about 50 cm, he stops and freezes for about four minutes before eventually leaving. This behavior could be interpreted as necessary rest after the efforts of copulating in a safe distance from the female.
The intervals of oviposition after copulating depend on the food intake and the overall physical fitness of the female. On average, 11 days are needed for the female to form and deposit an ootheca, which contains around 100 to 200 eggs. Females deposit their eggs on the leaves of water lilies. Most eggs from one ootheca hatch at the same time as worm-like pre larvae (L1). The hatchings always occur in the morning.
The L1 just exists for a very short time. The first moult happens on or very close to the ootheca. The now-emerging nymphs already look a lot like the adults, but are maybe a tenth of their size. Very few animals survive this first instar stage due to lack of appropriately sized food and predation.
The L2–L6 stages generally last about 14 days each. During this time, a growth around 6 mm per stadium can be observed. Each stadium is completed with a moult. The L7 develops a more compact shape. Wing pads become visible. L7 and L8 show the same growth rate and duration as the previous stages. After the next moult, the adult animal emerges. It now has wings and is fully developed. Females die shortly after laying her eggs and males that aren’t eaten by the females after copulation do not survive longer than four days.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.23 18:44. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good and r..


JOrnitho
Good and relistic animal!
But why it imitates only mureru water lily? There are many species of them in northean parts of Sourh America, and their flowers usually look like similar. So, if parare will imitate not only endemic water lilys, it can live not only at Catatumbo basin, but also at other ones.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.23 20:46. Заголовок: Interesting insect!..


Interesting insect!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.05.23 23:18. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Do ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Do you need some help?


No, thank you! I'll make the description but a little bit later.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Parare, or purple water lily mantis (Nymphaefilus purpuraceus)


Very good description!

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
So, if parare will imitate not only endemic water lilys, it can live not only at Catatumbo basin, but also at other ones.


Well, JOrnitho have written about the new genus: Nymphaefilus, so I think it can be much more species in this genus living in flowers and using aggressive mimicry.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
longer than four dies


May be you mean days?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
flying insects


first of all bees!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.05.23 02:36. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Well,..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Well, JOrnitho have written about the new genus: Nymphaefilus, so I think it can be much more species in this genus living in flowers and using aggressive mimicry.


Yes. I thought that there could be other species of water lily around the rivers of the rainforests of Northern South America, each with a species of Nymphaefilus living on them.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be you mean days?


Corrected it! This happens when I try to do two things at the same time.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.05.23 10:15. Заголовок: JOrnitho, tuna sapip..


JOrnitho, tuna sapipi is described
http://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-2-1685344487897-00000025-000-10001-0#038 - description is here in Russian.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.05.23 08:17. Заголовок: JOrnitho Yes. I tho..


JOrnitho

 цитата:
Yes. I thought that there could be other species of watr lily around the rivers of the rainforests of Northern South America, each with a species of Nymphaefilus living on them.


Ok. I understand it.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 31.05.23 18:53. Заголовок: Bestiary for chapter..


Bestiary for chapter Brejos de Altitude.
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So then mammals of chapter will be
1. Euphractus sexcinctus - something like big armored boar
2 Digelphis marsupialis - mongoose-like opossum hunting snakes.
4. Callithrix jacchus - something interesting (will think later when finish bestiary)
5. Galea spixii - something like Porcula salvania
6. Akodon aff. cursor - jackal-rat, the rat with the size of Speothos venaticus, but jackal-like: more quick & graceful & omnivorous.
7. Oligoryzomys stramineus - Pygeretmus like rodent
8. Rhipidomys mastacalis - Cheirogaleus like animal.
9. Sylvilagus brasiliensis - Madoqua like animal.
10. clouded leopard-sized cat (or yagouaroundi), with sabertooth to hunt "armored boar" cingulata.
11. Myotis nigricans
12. Glossophaga soricina

Birds
13. The birds that will be hunting on big snakes Geranospiza caerulescens and Leptodon cayanensis
14.Herpetotheres cachinnans (The laughing falcon) - the bird that will be hunting on middle snakes.
15. Micrastur ruficollis the bird that will be hunting on small snakes and other small animals in forest and Gampsonyx swainsonii in swamps.

Turtles:
16. Kinosternon scorpioides or Mesoclemmys tuberculata.


I was trying to choose the snakes, but they all so beautiful, I can't make the last decision whom to choose, for now cut the list in half:
Green are that I want to choose.
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I'll work on the list more.




The list of lizards
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The list of amphibians
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List of plants.
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I'm making the biggest bestiary then will reduce. Or we will make two chapters

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 31.05.23 19:01. Заголовок: list of fishes from ..


list of fishes from which we need to choose
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The full list of birds living there. We also need to choose.

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May be, JOrnitho, you will choose fishes and birds?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 31.05.23 22:23. Заголовок: By the way, JOrnitho..


By the way, JOrnitho, what do you think whom of the prehistoric South American animals (especially from the megafauna) we could try to "reanimate" in neocene, but from those animals that are now available (like those marsupial saber-toothed hyenas that I mentioned from modern Didelphidae).

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 02:01. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be, JOrnitho, you will choose fishes and birds?


For the fishes, I thought that we could show some cases of endemism. Perhaps we could even have a Tilapia, an introduced species that became a new species in this environment. Then, we could have a heron, descending of Butorides striatus to feed of them. The bird of prey could be adapted to hunt serpents, the ancestor could be Leptodon cayanensis. We could also have some colorful birds from the genus Tangara and one desceding from Chiroxiphia pareola, to give color to the place. Perhaps a descendant of the Turdus rufiventris could also appear. These passeriformes would be hunted by serpents.
By the way, I agree with your idea for the serpents. The Lachesis muta could become long like the Ophiophagus hannah of the Holocene.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
the way, JOrnitho, what do you think whom of the prehistoric South American animals (especially from the megafauna) we could try to "reanimate" in neocene, but from those animals that are now available (like those marsupial saber-toothed hyenas that I mentioned from modern Didelphidae).


Well, we have my idea of Astrapotherium-like tapirs living in Southeastern and Southern South America, a sister genus to Tapirotherium. We could also make a carnivorous armadillo like the Macroeuphractus in the pampas. There is the Protopithecus, a large Atelinae monkey from the Cerrado. We could have a large baboon like primate in the Savannas, having an arboreal and terrestrial lifestyle. There is any niche left vacant that could be filled by other cases of analogue evolution?

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:

May be we can make such marsupial saber-toothed hyena in some desert?


Maybe they could live in the Andean Plateau?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 11:47. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: For..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
For the fishes, I thought that we could show some cases of endemism. Perhaps we could even have a Tilapia, an introduced species that became a new species in this environment. Then, we could have a heron, descending of Butorides striatus to feed of them. The bird of prey could be adapted to hunt serpents, the ancestor could be Leptodon cayanensis. We could also have some colorful birds from the genus Tangara and one desceding from Chiroxiphia pareola, to give color to the place. Perhaps a descendant of the Turdus rufiventris could also appear. These passeriformes would be hunted by serpents.
By the way, I agree with your idea for the serpents. The Lachesis muta could become long like the Ophiophagus hannah of the Holocene.



Ok. I agree with the fishes. I'll also study the list of birds may be will take someone else.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Well, we have my idea of Astrapotherium-like tapirs living in Southeastern and Southern South America, a sister genus to Tapirotherium. We could also make a carnivorous armadillo like the Macroeuphractus in the pampas. There is the Protopithecus, a large Atelinae monkey from the Cerrado. We could have a large baboon like primate in the Savannas, having an arboreal and terrestrial lifestyle. There is any niche left vacant that could be filled by other cases of analogue evolution?



JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe they could live in the Andean Plateau?



I agree with all.

Let's them all describe!

Whom from Meridiungulata we can "reanimate"?

And also it will be cool to "reanimate" this animal in some forest:

I think from agouti!
May be in your Marvellous forest?

From the Bestiary for chapter Brejos de Altitude.
Akodon aff. cursor may be a "jackal-rat" but with traits of Patene Simpsoni


Oligoryzomys stramineus - may be first it will become like Pygeretmus but than may be evolve to the animal like Leptictidium

Sylvilagus brasiliensis - will be big as Madoqua, but may be will look like Pachyrukhos
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 13:25. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Whom ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Whom from Meridiungulata we can "reanimate"?
And also it will be cool to "reanimate" this animal in some forest:
I think from agouti!
May be in your Marvellous forest?


Perhaps I should change the description of the Astrapotherium-like tapirs to make it more like the Meridiungulata, Lipdoterna? I came to the conclusion that the Tapirotherium already fills the niche of large and robust mammals, so the mborevi could have a more modest size and slim build. Then, it would fill the niche of the tapir and okapi, but living in herds. It would still be the sister genus to Tapirotherium.
What do you think? We could also have an Andean species, with limbs adapted to move in the slopes.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Oligoryzomys stramineus - may be first it will become like Pygeretmus but than may be evolve to the animal like Leptictidium


I think that it would remain as Pygeretmus. For a Leptictidium-like animal, I think that you should look at a shrew or elephant-shrew. One such animal could appear in Zinj Land, if they don't exist already.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Sylvilagus brasiliensis - will be big as Madoqua, but may be will look like Pachyrukhos


I agree!
By the way, what do you think of the Callithrix of the "brejos de altitude" evolving in tamaris (Saguinus)? They could also have sexual dimorphism. Also, an interesting serpent for the chapter could be one that mimic green vines to hunt lizards and birds.

Another animal that we could also "revive" are the ancestors of the muskox (Euceratherium, Soergelia, Praeovibos, Bootherium) by using the domestic sheeps that are very common in Chile and Argentina. This new "musk ox" would live in the extreme South of South America, enduring the winter in these areas.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 14:39. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Per..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Perhaps I should change the description of the Astrapotherium-like tapirs to make it more like the Meridiungulata? I came to the conclusion that the Tapirotherium already fills the niche of large mammals, so the mborevi could have a more modest size. Then, it would fill the niche of the tapir and okapi, but living in herds. It would still be the sister genus to Tapirotherium.
What do you think? We could also have an Andean species, with limbs adapted to move in the slopes.


Better let it be mborevi.

Victorlemoinea from agouti we can make in south forests, but big like okapi.
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JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
By the way, what do you think of the Callithrix of the "brejos de altitude" evolving in tamaris (Saguinus)? They could also have sexual dimorphism.


Yes they could!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Another animal that we could also "revive" are the ancestors of the muskox (Euceratherium, Soergelia, Praeovibos, Bootherium) by using the domestic sheeps that are very common in Chile and Argentina. This new "musk ox" would live in the extreme South of South America, enduring the winter in these areas.


Ok.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 18:57. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Bette..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Better let it be mborevi.
Victorlemoinea from agouti we can make in south forests, but big like okapi.
Скрытый текст


These agoutis could have a inflated snout or something similar that they use to produce sounds. It could have a relationship with the mborevi, using their trails and foraging with them.
I think that I'll still change some details of the mborevi, because I wanted to make it a bit slim. Do you think that they could be more like a Macrauchenia? Large and robust, but not rhinoceros-like.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 17:54. Заголовок: I think it would be ..

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 22:47. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
These agoutis could have a inflated snout or something similar that they use to produce sounds. It could have a relationship with the mborevi, using their trails and foraging with them.


Good idea!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that I'll still change some details of the mborevi, because I wanted to make it a bit slim. Do you think that they could be more like a Macrauchenia? Large and robust, but not rhinoceros-like.


Victorlemoinea is already forest relatives of Macrauchenia (it will like "hybrid" between Okapi and Macrauchenia). I like that mborevi so massive, but it is your animal, you can change it. May be new version of that animal will be really better.

About "reanimated" Macroeuphractus let's make him also horned as Peltephilus ferox.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.06.23 23:05. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Victo..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Victorlemoinea is already forest relatives of Macrauchenia (it will like "hybrid" between Okapi and Macrauchenia). I like that mborevi so massive, but it is your animal, you can change it. May be new version of that animal will be really better.


I'll make redescription for the mborevi and we can see if it becomes more interesting with these modifications. I'll find a middle term between it being massive, but maintaining the characteristics that I tought that it could also have. This way they can open paths through the forests that are used by the agoutis.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
About "reanimated" Macroeuphractus let's make him also horned as Peltephilus ferox.


Rather than giving horns to it, what do you think of having the males develop some type of structure used for intraspecific disputes?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 03:16. Заголовок: wovoka, here is the ..


wovoka, here is the reworked version of the mborevi's description.

Atlantic mborevi (Probocitherium grandis)
Order: Perissodactyla
Family: Tapiridae
Habitat: Atlantic coast of South America, tropical forests in lowlands and mountains, including the "campos de altitude".
Even with the anthropogenic pressure over their habitats, the tapirs were able to survive in the Neocene. While being a relict group, they were able to develop different forms to fill niches that their ancestors never occupied. Among these new forms was the Genus Probocitherium, a sister group to the larger Tapirotherium. Like their close relatives, the members of this genus are large-sized mammals. However, their lifestyle is more similar to the one that their ancestor, the South American tapir (Tapirus terrestris), had. The type species of the group is the Atlantic mborevi, an inhabitant of the Atlantic forests of South America, both in the lowlands and the mountains, including the tundra-like grasslands located in the top of mountain ranges that are know as "campos de altitude". Mborevi is a Tupi-guarani word that was used to name the tapir.
The Atlantic mborevi is a large animal, with a full grown male having 300 to 320 cm of body length and standing between 190 to 200 cm at the shoulder. The females are smaller, having a body length of 220 to 250 cm, while standing between 130 to 160 cm. They have a weight ranging from 320 to 500 kg, but males can reach nearly one tonne. Their body shape is very similar to that of extinct Macrauchenia, with a camel-like body, with sturdy legs. They have a relatively long neck, with an erect crest running from the crown down the back. Its feet are more similar to that of the Tapirotherium, with one central toe and two side toes on each foot.The cartilaginous tissue is also present, giving them silent steps.
Mborevi have a dexterous trunk, which is shorter than that of their Tapirotherium relatives, but still longer than that of their ancestors. They are dark brown, paler in the face and underparts. The round, dark ears have distinctive light brown edges. The newborns have a light brown coat, with white stripes along the body. The erect crest of females and young is pale gray, while in full grown adults it’s black.
This species is herbivorous. Using its long neck and mobile nose, it feeds on leaves, buds, shoots, and small branches it tears from trees, fruit and grasses. Tubercules and roots are also consumed, with the mborevi digging them out of the ground. They also feed on the vast majority of seeds found in the forest. Given their size and weight, these animals can shake small trees to have access to fruits. Due to its capacity of changing the environment, they can be considered forest gardners.
Atlantic mborevi live in small matriarchal herds formed by an older female and her sisters and daughters. Such groups rarely surpass more than 20 individuals, which maintain contact to each other through different types of vocalizations, ranging from loud whistles to infrasonic sounds. The males are solitary, only interacting with the females during the mating season. They are always in search of food and water, moving through well delimited trails that can be in use for several years. Other animals will also use these paths, even following the mborevi for protection and to eat the food that these animals leave behind when they dig the ground or shake the trees. Differently from their ancestors, the mborevi isn’t an animal heavily associated with the water. They’ll visit lakes and rivers to drink, but rarely swim on them, doing it only during very hot days.
Females become sexually mature at the age of six to seven years, while males become sexually mature at about 10 years old. The gestation period is around 16–17 months. The calf, which typically weighs 40–60 kg, is weaned after about 15 months. Female calves stay in her mother herd, but the male will stay only for the first two to three years of their lives. The birth interval for this species is four to five years. Due to their size, an adult mborevi have few predators, with their young being more successive to predation. For their protection, the females will form a circle around them when the group is being attacked by predators. While they do it, the females will loudly vocalize against the predator while also trying to stomp them. Mborevi can have a lifespan of 60 years.
Another representative of the genus is the Southern mborevi (Probocitherium australis), an inhabitant of the temperate forests of Southern South America. Their size is close to that of their relative of the Atlantic forest, with a full grown male having 290 to 315 cm of body length and standing between 190 to 200 cm at the shoulder. The females of this species are also smaller than the male, having a body length of 200 to 230 cm, while standing between 120 to 140 cm. They are black in the upperparts, with the fur becoming noticeably light brown on the underside, around the anal region, and on the cheeks. Besides the different fur color, this species also has a more dense pelage. It protects them from the low temperatures during the winter. These animals also live in matriarchal groups, while the males are solitary.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 08:12. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good anima..


JOrnitho
Good animal! I like it.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 08:50. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Atl..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Atlantic mborevi (Probocitherium grandis)


I like the description.

So we need the description of aguti "forest macrauhenia" to understand the relationships between them and mborevi.
I found the vocabulary of language tapiete (it is the version of Guarani), but guarani and tupi are very close as I understand.

So in tapiete lama - wasuraimiwa, forest -ka’a, nose - tenti, long - puku.

So full name can be Pukutenti ka’awasuraimiwa (long-nosed forest lama) or just Pukutenti wasuraimiwa.
or take word wanaku - guanaco (Pukutenti ka’awanaku).

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Rather than giving horns to it, what do you think of having the males develop some type of structure used for intraspecific disputes?


For example?
I thought the horns wouldn't be the weapon for fighting of males, it will be just instrument of demonstration of sexual power of male: the more horn the more sexually attractive the male for females.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 10:00. Заголовок: Interesting animal!..


Interesting animal!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 14:44. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So fu..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So full name can be Pukutenti ka’awasuraimiwa (long-nosed forest lama) or just Pukutenti wasuraimiwa.
or take word wanaku - guanaco (Pukutenti ka’awanaku).


I like Pukutenti ka’awanaku more.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
For example?
I thought the horns wouldn't be the weapon for fighting of males, it will be just instrument of demonstration of sexual power of male: the more horn the more sexually attractive the male for females.


Then the horns could be used this way, rather than a weapon for intraspecific disputes.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 16:05. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I l..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like Pukutenti ka’awanaku more.


Yes, it's shorter.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Then the horns could be used this way, rather than a weapon for intraspecific disputes.


Ok! And what will be "the weapon for intraspecific disputes"?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 16:24. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Ok! A..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Ok! And what will be "the weapon for intraspecific disputes"?


Maybe a mace-like tail? The males could have a solid structure at the tip that they use to fight each other.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 17:05. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

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The males could have a solid structure at the tip that they use to fight each other.


Like Doedicurus clavicaudatus?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 19:22. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Like ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Like Doedicurus clavicaudatus?


Yes, but the tail could be more like that of the dinosaur Stegouros elengassen, with seven pairs of flat, blade-like bony scales fused together.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 19:57. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Yes..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Yes, but the tail could be more like that of the dinosaur Stegouros elengassen, with seven pairs of flat, blade-like bony scales fused together.


Cool!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 20:36. Заголовок: JOrnitho, I decided ..


JOrnitho, I decided to make a little intro to the chapter "Marvellous Forest"
It's here:
http://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-7-1685726303941-00000031-000-0-0#000.001
in English (sorry for my English).

Two explanations.

I decided to give the english name to Pukutenti ka’awanaku - forest litopternoagouti. What do you think?

Also we decided to make little predator opossum (the descendant of Didelphis albiventris) that look like little Sparassodonta, I decided to choose cladosiktis from epoche of Miocene: english name neocladosiktis, tupi-guarani name pukutirai gaba (in tapiete language: puku – long, ti-r-äï -tooth, in tupi language gã'bá - opossum).

Nobody knows what was it's color.
I've found to versions:
Скрытый текст

Which you like more?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.06.23 22:44. Заголовок: One more idea for &#..


One more idea for "Marvellous Forest" make Brotogeris tirica not only eating seeds, fruit, flowers, and nectar from a very wide variety of plants and trees & adult and larval insects, but eating ticks from the skin of Mborevi and other herbivorous animals. The name of Brotogeris tirica by Tupi language - Tiriba.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 02:29. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: JOrni..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
JOrnitho, I decided to make a little intro to the chapter "Marvellous Forest"
It's here:
http://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-7-1685726303941-00000031-000-0-0#000.001
in English (sorry for my English).


I like it!

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I decided to give the english name to Pukutenti ka’awanaku - forest litopternoagouti. What do you think?
Also we decided to make little predator opossum (the descendant of Didelphis albiventris) that look like little Sparassodonta, I decided to choose cladosiktis from epoche of Miocene: english name neocladosiktis, tupi-guarani name pukutirai gaba (in tapiete language: puku – long, ti-r-äï -tooth, in tupi language gã'bá - opossum).


I like the name of both animals. Would the neocladosiktis be part of the Martenodelphidae? It's life style suits that of the martem opossum, their close relative. If we do it, I think that we could have the mongooses be the ones feeding of serpents and scorpions, since we would already have a cool marsupial predator.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Which you like more?


I like the color of the first one, but with the body shape of the second. This combination remember me of a quoll (Dasyurus). I think that the neocladosiktis would have a lifestyle simialr to the quolls, but living in the trees.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
One more idea for "Marvellous Forest" make Brotogeris tirica not only eating seeds, fruit, flowers, and nectar from a very wide variety of plants and trees & adult and larval insects, but eating ticks from the skin of Mborevi and other herbivorous animals. The name of Brotogeris tirica by Tupi language - Tiriba.


This is a nice idea! These Brotogeris could also do it with Tapirotherium and barocavias.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 05:52. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I l..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like it!


Thank you!
Later I'll try to make the plan of rhe chapter.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Would the neocladosiktis be part of the Martenodelphidae?


Would they have the same ancestor:
Didelphis albiventris? Then ok. But it's aninal now have such areal: Скрытый текст
Could he get to Amazonia to neocene?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like the color of the first one, but with the body shape of the second. This combination remember me of a quoll (Dasyurus).


Yes, they have something similar.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that the neocladosiktis would have a lifestyle simialr to the quolls, but living in the trees.


I think he could periodically hunt on the earth or even sleep in the earth holes especially in dry seasons. Or even so: the younger persons living on the trees
and hunting in the night, the old and larger persons with big hunting expirience live on the earth, sleep in the earth holes and hunt in the morning or evening and like bigger prey. The persons of middle age part of the life spending on trees and part on earth.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
These Brotogeris could also do it with Tapirotherium and barocavias.


I was thinking he would live only in Atlantic forest, because today Brotogeris tirica have a very small living areal
Скрытый текст
He need to expanse living space to neocene for eating ticks of amazonian tapirotherium.




I would also like to "reanimate" such animals:
Скрытый текст

What do you think who could be the ansectors, and were we can settle them?

First may be only capibara or paca, somewhere in pampas.
The second can be tuco-tuco in wet Pampa or marshes, or may be in shrubs.
The third can be some meat eating Rattus norvegicus somewere in desert. Or may be somebody else? May be some monkey living in desert?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 15:20. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Would..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Would they have the same ancestor:
Didelphis albiventris? Then ok. But it's aninal now have such areal:


They share the same ancestor. Since the Amazonian marten opossum already reached the rainforest, then it already happened. It's perfect!

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I think he could periodically hunt on the earth or even sleep in the earth holes especially in dry seasons. Or even so: the younger persons living on the trees
and hunting in the night, the old and larger persons with big hunting expirience live on the earth, sleep in the earth holes and hunt in the morning or evening and like bigger prey. The persons of middle age part of the life spending on trees and part on earth.


Since they are nocturnal, there will not have competition with the mongoose that would hunt during the entire day.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I was thinking he would live only in Atlantic forest, because today Brotogeris tirica have a very small living areal
He need to expanse living space to neocene for eating ticks of amazonian tapirotherium.


I see, but they could still eat ticks of barocavias too.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
What do you think who could be the ansectors, and were we can settle them?

First may be only capibara or paca, somewhere in pampas.
The second can be tuco-tuco in wet Pampa or marshes, or may be in shrubs.
The third can be some meat eating Rattus norvegicus somewere in desert. Or may be somebody else? May be some monkey living in desert?


I think that the one that evolved from the capybara could be related to the barocavia, but living in dry areas. Since the Neocene already have barocavias, I don’t think that tuco-tucos in wetlands would be plausible, since this niche is already filled.
The "revived" Pampaphoneus could be a marsupial living in the desert of Atacama or the Andean plateau.
The monkey that we could "revive" is the Cartelles.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 19:27. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that the one that evolved from the capybara could be related to the barocavia, but living in dry areas. Since the Neocene already have barocavias, I don’t think that tuco-tucos in wetlands would be plausible, since this niche is already filled.


I think the "Rhinoceros" can be relative to Megapaca deinodonta living in dry areas.
Author already was thinking about butting form of barocavia or paca:
https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1685808150672-00000144-000-10001-0#014
https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1685808150675-00000144-000-10001-0#015
https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1685808150676-00000144-000-10001-0#017

And mixotoxodon can be descendant of Spalacopus cyanus in Chilean Mediterranean Coastal Semi-Desert Scrub & Grassland. I think barocavias and megapacas don't live there.

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Do you really want to revive Permian synapsids?


No I just want to have the animal with the similar form of body. That's all
JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The "revived" Pampaphoneus could be a marsupial living in the desert of Atacama or the Andean plateau.


Let it be marsupial!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The monkey that we could "revive" is the Cartelles.


It's good idea! Who can be the ancestor of pseudocartelles?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 19:59. Заголовок: wovoka No I just wa..


wovoka

 цитата:
No I just want to have the animal with the similar form of body. That's all


Derived mammals have more efficient gait with limbs under the body, so they won't return to "reptilian" gait with splayed limbs (only if they shall need it and have no concurents).
So, "mammal-like reptile" bodyplan can't evolve again from derived mammals. Carnivorous opossum in the Neocene shall be moongoose-like, but not strange and reptilian!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 23:38. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Deri..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Derived mammals have more efficient gait with limbs under the body, so they won't return to "reptilian" gait with splayed limbs (only if they shall need it and have no concurents).
So, "mammal-like reptile" bodyplan can't evolve again from derived mammals. Carnivorous opossum in the Neocene shall be moongoose-like, but not strange and reptilian!


So let it be a reptilia: something like Heloderma suspectum with the scales like have Atheris hispida considering that we will not grow hair on a reptile.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.23 00:24. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So le..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So let it be a reptilia: something like Heloderma suspectum with the scales like have Atheris hispida considering that we will not grow hair on a reptile


I think that it wouldn't be possible because there is already many mammalian predators to fill the niche of the Pampaphoneus.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 21:52. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Carn..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Carnivorous opossum in the Neocene shall be moongoose-like, but not strange and reptilian!


In this case, I think that this animal should be more like a large Sparassodont like the Thylacosmilus or even the Australian marsupial lion. It would make more sense.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
It's good idea! Who can be the ancestor of pseudocartelles?


I think that a capuchin monkey would make more sense, since the howler monkeys would be more difficult in becoming terrestrial primates. The capuchin monkeys in the Cerrado and caatinga already visit the floor, usually to use tools to break nuts.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 16:49. Заголовок: JOrnitho "reviv..


JOrnitho

 цитата:
"revived" Pampaphoneus


Do you really want to revive Permian synapsids? I don't belive in it because:
1) Permian world was very different from Cenozoic and had other conditions for living beings.
2) Permian synapsids aka "mammal-like reptiles" were limited by their primitive anatomy. Mammals haven't this limits - they have limbs under the body, characterising skull and advanced form of viviparity. So, if they will fill niches of Permians, they should stay mammals. Reviving them won't be truly "reviving".

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 17:27. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: Do y..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Do you really want to revive Permian synapsids? I don't belive in it because:


I'm aware of that. Any animal that evolve to have such characteristic would only fill their niches. For example, a marsupial or placental would be very, very superficially similar to a Pampaphoneus due to the niche that they are now filling. The correct rhing there is "replacement with a new model", rather than "reviving". Like how the Tapirotherium replaced the proboscids in South America.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.06.23 17:48. Заголовок: JOrnitho I just wan..


JOrnitho
I just wanted to say this to you.
But without interesting primitive anatomy there is no reason to call your species "revived Pampaphoneus". It will be just carnivorous opossum from Andes.
We also can't "revive" Pampaphoneus because we know only its skull and csn not restore behaviour, diet and even appearance of this animal.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.23 17:25. Заголовок: So now we have to de..


So now we have to describe for Marvelous forest.
Pukutenti ka’awanaku (forest litopternoagouti) - from agouti.
Pukutirai gaba (neocladosiktis) - from opossum.
Tiriba - from Brotogeris tirica
Karumboi (in tapiete - he eats snake) - from mongoose. But I think he would be not like real mongoose, he would be like Galidia elegans (also red, but not only with a striped tail, but with a completely striped body, only with ginger head).

I think, given into consideration the colonization of South America by opossums, it will lead to the settlement of this animal throughout the continent and to the evolutionary radiation of mongooses, forms of different sizes, colors and with different diets will appear. We need to describe at least 7-10 species from the size of a bear (bear mongoose, hunts giant boas, very long poisonous snakes, huge tegus, although it can even hunt deers) to the size of a mouse (a mouse mongoose, will catch ticks in the grass or forest floor), with different colors: black, brown, gray, red, yellow, striped, spotted (with small spots, with large spots), multi-colored, mongooses with bushy tails like bushy-tailed mongoose. A bear mongoose, as we have already discussed, will be pursued at a respectful distance by a bear opossum, mainly a scavenger, eating up the remains of bear mongoose food, we can also make a small or middle sized mongoose with saber teeth - an armadillo hunter, but in other places than neocladosiktis, and we said about the analogue of meerkats. It can be weasel like mongoose, eating birds and their eggs on trees, it can be something like Liberiictis kuhni with long nose eating earthworms, it can be something with with pig nose like Arctonyx collaris, in can be something like kusimanse - eating termites. Something like that. It can be a lot of forms.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.23 17:58. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So no..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So now we have to describe for Marvelous forest.
Pukutenti ka’awanaku (forest litopternoagouti) - from agouti.
Pukutirai gaba (neocladosiktis) - from opossum.
Tiriba - from Brotogeris tirica
Karumboi (in tapiete - he eats snake) - from mongoose. But I think he would be not like real mongoose, he would be like Galidia elegans (also red, but not only with a striped tail, but with a completely striped body, only with ginger head).


Ok! I'll work on them.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I think, given into consideration the colonization of South America by opossums, it will lead to the settlement of this animal throughout the continent and to the evolutionary radiation of mongooses, forms of different sizes, colors and with different diets will appear. We need to describe at least 7-10 species from the size of a bear (bear mongoose, hunts giant boas, very long poisonous snakes, huge tegus, although it can even hunt deers) to the size of a mouse (a mouse mongoose, will catch ticks in the grass or forest floor), with different colors: black, brown, gray, red, yellow, striped, spotted (with small spots, with large spots), multi-colored, mongooses with bushy tails like bushy-tailed mongoose. A bear mongoose, as we have already discussed, will be pursued at a respectful distance by a bear opossum, mainly a scavenger, eating up the remains of bear mongoose food, we can also make a small or middle sized mongoose with saber teeth - an armadillo hunter, but in other places than neocladosiktis, and we said about the analogue of meerkats. It can be weasel like mongoose, eating birds and their eggs on trees, it can be something like Liberiictis kuhni with long nose eating earthworms, it can be something with with pig nose like Arctonyx collaris, in can be something like kusimanse - eating termites. Something like that. It can be a lot of forms.


I don’t know if it's possible to have so many predators in South America. A balanced ecosystem can't have many species filling the same niche.
The bear-like Macrokupara inhabits the Amazon, so the bear mongoose would need to live only in the savannas. Rather than having a bear-like opossum following them, maybe we could have something different and smaller that don't fill the same niche.
Regarding the mouse sized opossum, they would probably replace small marsupials such as Monodelphis. These small animals could also hunt rodents.
I like the idea of anteater-like mongoose, perhaps feeding on ant hills and termite mounds that were open by larger insectivores.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.23 18:48. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I d..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I don’t know if it's possible to have so many predators in South America.


A lot of them will be specialized on eating snakes and arachnids, but with different sizes.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
bear mongoose would need to live only in the savannas


I thought he will live in Andes.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Rather than having a bear-like opossum following them, maybe we could have something different and smaller that don't fill the same niche.


It will be smaller and niche is different the first is hunter, the second is scavenger.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Regarding the mouse sized opossum, they would probably replace small marsupials such as Monodelphis


This opossum will be very little specialized on eating ticks and there nymphs and may be little spiders in the grass or forest floor.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like the idea of anteater-like mongoose, perhaps feeding on ant hills and termite mounds that were open by larger insectivores.


But I forgot, we have armadillo anteater. How they will share the same niche?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.23 19:25. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I tho..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I thought he will live in Andes.
It will be smaller and niche is different the first is hunter, the second is scavenger.[quote]
This makes me think of the Jungle Book, with how the jackal Tabaki followed Sherekan. The opossum could have the size of one of these canids and have opportunistic diet in the Andean Plateau.

wovoka пишет:
[quote]This opossum will be very little specialized on eating ticks and there nymphs and may be little spiders in the grass or forest floor.


Or the Monodelphis evolve in these mouse-sized opossum. Also, if there is small mongoose with similar size, they could have evolved to hunt solely scorpions, centipedes and maybe poison dart frogs.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But I forgot, we have armadillo anteater. How they will share the same niche?


I think that it'll not be possible.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.06.23 22:20. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Mon..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Monodelphis


I was trying to check: Monodelphis seems not eat ticks, mongoose eat ticks, so we can do two species of mouse-sized opossum one smaller & one bigger: the first eating ticks and little spiders, second: scorpions, centipedes and poison dart frogs.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that it'll not be possible.


Then it will not be termite eating mongoose. But it can be sable-toothed armadillo eating mongoose.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 05.06.23 03:56. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I wa..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:

I was trying to check: Monodelphis seems not eat ticks, mongoose eat ticks, so we can do to species of mouse-sized opossum one smaller & one bigger^ the first eating ticks and little spiders, second: scorpions, centipedes and poison dart frogs.


This works. Besides, Monodelphis is nocturnal, while mongoose would be more active during the day.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Then it will not be termite eating mongoose. But it can be sable-toothed armadillo eating mongoose.


Yes! There could be some species of armadillo that are more defensive, like the Tolypeutes. The mongoose could be adapted to break their defense.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.06.23 09:59. Заголовок: JOrnitho, we were ta..


JOrnitho, we were talking about the bestiary of delta Orinoco.

I found such a list of the animals of that region
https://ospreyexpeditions.com/amazing-animals-of-orinoco/
Will you help me to fill the niches of extincting animals?
1. Ara ararauna - will extinct to neocene. (who can take his niche?)
2. Ramphastos tucanus - vulnerable, can extinct to neocene. (who can take his niche?)
3. Opisthocomus hoazin - has the chance to survive (but how he will evolve)
4. Chloroceryle amazona - will survive, but I want to make him much more bigger.
5. Bradypus variegatus - - will extinct to neocene. (I want to fill his niche by some tree rodent, with the same strategy of loving with making gardens of algae on the body https://elementy.ru/kartinka_dnya/630/Lenivets_i_ego_vodorosli)
6. Pteronura brasiliensis - will extinct, we decided to settle there eiba - will be main hero of chapter.
7. Hydrochaeris hydrochaeris - barocavia
8. Myrmecophaga tridactyla - will extinct (may be we take some rodent to fill it niche here).
9. Crocodylus intermedius - will extinct (who can take his niche?)
10. Caiman crocodilus - can survive (i wated to make tree caiman https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1686289245043-00000147-000-10001-0#004.001.001 (before this description was a long discussion), but Author reject it, the argument was that lizard will more quickly fill this niche). So we can replace caiman by someone else.
11. Iguana iguana - will survive, will survive, but I want to make it much more bigger, like "grass eating caiman".
12. Alouatta seniculus - will extinct (who can take his niche?)
13. Harpia harpyja - vulnerable - can extinct (who can take his niche?)
14. Eunectes murinus - can extinct (we can replace it by my https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1686291352928-00000176-000-10001-0#048 sakompo)
15. Inia geoffrensis - will extinct (algocetus is grass eating, we need fish eating dolphin like mammal, may be small).
16. Panthera Onca - Jaguarete
17. Pteroglossus aracari - will survive (what interesting we can do with him?)
18. Citharacanthus spinicrus - will extinct, will need to replace it by other tarantula and make bigger.
19. Nyctibius grandis - will survive, but I don't know how to evolve him
20. Boa Constrictor - will survive (but we have already sakompo, I don't know what interesting we can do with him ).
21. Electrophorus electricus - will survive (may be make it big like shark?).

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 00:09. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: 1. Ar..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
1. Ara ararauna - will extinct to neocene. (who can take his niche?)


There is the Araguari amazonica that was added recently to the Bestiary.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
5. Bradypus variegatus - - will extinct to neocene. (I want to fill his niche by some tree rodent, with the same strategy of loving with making gardens of algae on the body https://elementy.ru/kartinka_dnya/630/Lenivets_i_ego_vodorosli)


Perhaps a species of porcupine could fill this niche, or an Echimyid.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
8. Myrmecophaga tridactyla - will extinct (may be we take some rodent to fill it niche here).


I think that its more sense if is a armadillo, or a mongoose.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.06.23 14:37. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: 3. Op..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
3. Opisthocomus hoazin - has the chance to survive (but how he will evolve)


Goatzin cubs have claws on their wings. What if his descendants will keep them even as adults?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.06.23 15:44. Заголовок: I finished the descr..


I finished the description of the Neocladosictis

Pukutirai gaba, or Atlantic sabertoothed opossum (Neocladosictis macularius)
Order:Didelphimorphia
Family: Martenodelphidae
Habitat: The seasonal moist broad-leaf tropical forests of the Atlantic coast of South America.
Even with the damage left by the humans in nature and the presence of placentals, the marsupials of South America continued to thrive and evolve. In the Neocene a new family appeared, the Martenodelphidae. Descending from the southern opossum (Didelphis albiventris), the members of this taxon had embraced the role of predators and hypercarnivorous. While the Ipochereu inhabits the Amazon rainforest and the marten opossum lives in the temperate regions of South America, the Pukutirai gaba inhabits the seasonal moist broad-leaf tropical forests of the Atlantic coast of South America. This animal is part of the genus Neocladosictis. Through convergent evolution, the members of this group developed elongated canines, giving them the appearance of some extinct species of Sparassodonta. It’s name have a Tupi-guarani origin (in tapiete language: puku – long, ti-r-äï -tooth, in tupi language gã'bá - opossum).
The Pukutirai gaba have sexual dimorphism in both length and weight. The males are larger and heavier than females, with 93 cm of length and 3,5 kg. The females are smaller, 79 cm of length and with a weight of 1,15 Kg. They have relatively short legs, but the tail is as long as its body and head combined, with a semi prehensile tip. The head is thick and they have a slightly rounded and elongated snout, with the upper canines protruding slightly out of the interior. The ears are short and rounded. The pelage in their upper body is dark brown with white spots. The tail is furred, with black color and the tip is white.
These marsupials are hypercarnivorous animals, feeding on other vertebrates. They hunt frogs, lizards, birds, rodents, smaller marsupials and even small monkeys. It’s a great predator of marmosets, surprising them while they sleep inside tree holes or during the early hours of the morning, when the primates are leaving their nocturnal refuges.
The Pukutirai gaba is solitary and nocturnal, being active from the early hours of the night to sometime before dawn. During the day, they rest in dens that take the form of burrows, caves, rock crevices, tree hollows and hollow logs. They spend most of their lives in the tree canopy, rarely descending to the floor. A male has a well delimited territory that encompasses territories of females, which usually are smaller than that of the male. They live in home ranges that range from 580 to 875 ha for males and 90–188 for females. Females tolerate close related females in trespassing their territories, but males will not tolerate another male, engaging in very aggressive intraspecific fights. The territories are demarcated with odor glands below their tails.
They mate in midwinter, but females can breed as early as the end of autumn. The female vocalizes when in estrus and easily accepts the male's mounting. In addition, the female's neck swells up. Mating involves the male holding on the female's sides with his paws and holding on the neck with his mouth. Copulation can last as long as 24 hours. Gestation lasts 11 to 13 days and the average litter size is 8 to 9 infants, although over 20 infants may be born. They have a very high mortality rate of their young; only one in ten offspring survive to reproductive adulthood. Newborns are the size of a honeybee. Once delivered through the median vagina or central birth canal, newborn Pukutirai gaba climbs up into the female's pouch and latch onto one of her 13 teats.
For the time the young is in the pouch, a female avoids hunting large prey. After the young have left the pouch, females stay in nests they have built. The young remain latched for two months and in the pouch for another month. The young then climb onto the mother's back, where she carries them for the remainder of their time together. It is during this time that the young learn survival skills. By 100 days the young become more independent of their mothers, and the mothers more aggressive towards their young. They leave their mother after about seven months. This species has a lifespan of 4 years, short for an animal of their size.
Another species of the genus Neocladosictis is the pallid sabertoothed opossum (Neocladosictis palidus), an inhabitant of the Atlantic dry forests of South America, an area of transition between the forests of the coast and the savannas of the interior of the continent. This species is smaller than the Pukutirai gaba, with males having 53 to 70 of length, while females have 48 to 58 cm. They have a tapering snout, short legs, and erect ears. They have a thick coat that is light buff with faint white dots. The underparts are white and stretch from the chin to the underside of the tail.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.06.23 17:17. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good! I lo..


JOrnitho
Good! I love this animal!
Оффтоп: please, stop making native names! they're hard to read and translate! if you want to add colorite, use spanish and portugese!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.06.23 19:19. Заголовок: Interesting opossum!..


Interesting opossum!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.06.23 21:39. Заголовок: Good opossum! Maybe ..


Good opossum! Maybe you will add to his diet such animal as descendant of Dasypus novemcinctus?

You haven't explain what his names means...

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
please, stop making native names!


Оффтоп: Let's before ask about it Author, if he is against native names?

And as for me I will continue to give animals native names!


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 11:18. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: And..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
And to show some of the culture of my country and continent.


I fully support you, but let us try to give simpler names.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe you will add to his diet such animal as descendant of Dasypus novemcinctus?


So what do you think to add to the chapter the descendant of Dasypus novemcinctus as the prey of necladosictis?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 15:01. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I ful..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I fully support you, but let us try to give simpler names.


I agree, there is some tupi-guarani and portuguese names that are simple, but still good for the name of animals.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So what do you think to add to the chapter the descendant of Dasypus novemcinctus as the prey of necladosictis?


I said in the description that Neocladosictis is mostly arboreal, maybe the rare occasions that it descends to the ground is to hunt this armadillo? This armadillo could be dwarf, like the fairy armadillo.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 17:05. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I s..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I said in the description that Neocladosictis is mostly arboreal, maybe the rare occasions that it descends to the ground is to hunt this armadillo? This armadillo could be dwarf, like the fairy armadillo.


Yes dwarf and also arboreal!

By the way, Dasypus novemcinctus can swim and dive, holding his breath for 6 minutes. If we make somewhere in Parana, Paranaíba and Rio Grande big (or middle-sized) swimming and diving armadillo feeding on benthic invertebrates and small vertebrates: worms, leeches, crustaceans, molluscs, small benthic fish, frogs, small aquatic non-venomous snakes?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 17:50. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: By th..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
By the way, Dasypus novemcinctus can swim and dive, holding his breath for 6 minutes. If we make somewhere in Parana, Paranaíba and Rio Grande big (or middle-sized) swimming and diving armadillo feeding on benthic invertebrates and small vertebrates: worms, leeches, crustaceans, molluscs, small benthic fish, frogs, small aquatic non-venomous snakes?


Yes! It could be like an armored water shrew (Neomys). There is also the rivers Paraíba do Sul and São Francisco.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 19:03. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: It ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It could be like an armored water shrew


But i want to make him bigger: body length 80-90 cm, tail length 50-60 cm. Height at withers 60-70 cm. Weight 50-70 kg.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
There is also the rivers Paraíba do Sul and São Francisco.


So, then we can include this animal to the chapter Marvelous forest. Could we?

Or we better make chapter about Parana rio?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 21:43. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Or we..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Or we better make chapter about Parana rio?


I think that is better to make another chapter. The São Francisco, for example, is in the transition between Caatinga and Mata Atlântica.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 10.06.23 23:35. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that is better to make another chapter. The São Francisco, for example, is in the transition between Caatinga and Mata Atlântica.


Then it will be animal for the chapter about Parana river

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.06.23 12:22. Заголовок: JOrnitho, I describe..


JOrnitho, I described the semi-aquatic armadillo from the river Parana basin
https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1686472214146-00000163-000-10001-0#035

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.06.23 14:50. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I des..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I described the semi-aquatic armadillo from the river Parana basin
https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-0-1686472214146-00000163-000-10001-0#035


Cool! It's a very good description!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 11.06.23 17:50. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Coo..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Cool! It's a very good description!


Thank you! Let it be the first animal of future chapter about Parana river

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 09.06.23 23:56. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: You h..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
You haven't explain what his names means...


I'll add it!

лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
Оффтоп: please, stop making native names! they're hard to read and translate! if you want to add colorite, use spanish and portugese!


It was wovoka's idea, but I think that it's a nice touch to the species. And to show some of the culture of my country and continent.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 17.06.23 17:05. Заголовок: I made the descripti..


I made the description of the litopternoagouti, but changed the name for something "simpler".

Akutituicha, or forest litopternoagouti (Aepydasyprocta sylvatica)
Order:Rodentia
Family:Dasyproctidae
Habitat: The seasonal dry and moist broad-leaf tropical forests of the Atlantic coast of South America, also reaching the montane forests.
While the transition between the Neocene and the Holocene caused the extinction of many species, others remained alive and continued to evolve. Among the survivors are the agoutis (Dasyprocta), which gave rise to several new genus during the Neocene. The Aepydasyprocta, the litopternoagoutis, is one of them. They have a similar lifestyle to that of the extinct Victorlemoinea. This genus is a sister taxa to the deer agoutis, Jakarawa. The main representative is the akutituicha (akuti= agouti/tuicha=large, both words in the Guarani language). This species inhabits the seasonal dry and moist broad-leaf tropical forests of the Atlantic coast of South America, also reaching the montane forests.
Akutituichas are large rodents, with a body length of 190 to 250 cm and a height of 150 to 170 cm. Males are usually larger than the females. They are brownish with darker spots on the upper body. The face is dark brown with some white stripes. The fur becomes more reddish orange as it goes past the middle area of the animal. The legs are dark gray with white stripes.The ears are somewhat square in shape and they are tailless. The front feet have four toes and the back have three each. The claws are modified in hooves, giving it the appearance of a primitive ungulate. The most distinctive characteristic of this genus as a whole is their inflated snout, which is used by the animals to produce sounds to communicate with each other in the dense forests. They also have long necks and can stand upright with their hindlimbs to reach food in high branches.
Their diet consists mostly of seeds, pulp, leaves, roots and fruits. While they no longer are capable of holding nuts like their ancestors, the akutituichas can use their jaws and incisors to crush this type of food. They follow herds of mborevi through their trails for protection and to have access to food that is in higher places, since these large mammals can shake trees to make fruits fall.
Akutituichas live in pairs or small groups of parents and their most recent babies. They have no distinct breeding season, but females come into season only once a year and generally have one to two young. The cubs are born well developed, with eyes open and white striped fur. For the first five months the cub feeds on milk, only starting to have an adult diet after six months. They leave the familiar group within ten months. Sexual maturity is reached within eighteen months and they have a lifespan of 15 years.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 21.06.23 12:26. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good roden..


JOrnitho
Good rodent!
About oncorhynchus mykiss at the Patagonian rivers: I think it can survive, but only as freshwater dwarf species.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 17.06.23 17:52. Заголовок: лягушка What do you ..


лягушка
What do you think of a descendant of the Oncorhynchus mykiss living in the Macaé River in Southeastern South America. This species was introduced in this river of Rio de Janeiro and maybe it could survive in the Neocene.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 17.06.23 20:51. Заголовок: Interesting rodent!..


Interesting rodent!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 17.06.23 21:07. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Aku..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Akutituicha


Very good description! I like this animal

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 18.06.23 13:00. Заголовок: So for the Marvelous..


So for the Marvelous forest you can also describe dwarf, nocturnal & arboreal armadillo the descendant of one of this species:
1. Dasypus septemcinctus;
2. Euphractus sexcinctus;
3. Dasypus novemcinctus.
Who will be like Chlamyphorus truncatus & will be the prey for neocladosictis.
The name mirimtatu ( mirim means small in tupinamba, tatu - armadillo in tupi)

And we talk about these animals
Tiriba - from Brotogeris tirica
Karumboi (in tapiete - he eats snake) - from mongoose. But I think he would be not like real mongoose, he would be like Galidia elegans (also red, but not only with a striped tail, but with a completely striped body, only with ginger head).

And we need to give a name to mouse-sized mongooses one smaller ticks and small spiders eating and one bigger eating little scorpions, centipedes and poison dart frogs.

But it will be difficult to give them indians' names.

I think the bigger will have colour like Fossa fossana and smaller has colour like Mungotictis decemlineata.









JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
There is the Araguari amazonica that was added recently to the Bestiary.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Perhaps a species of porcupine could fill this niche, or an Echimyid.


Echimyid is better.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:

I think that its more sense if is a armadillo, or a mongoose


Longnosed mongoose! It will be interesting!
It will be like hybrid of Myrmecophaga tridactyla & Eupleres goudotii.

Temnospondile пишет:

 цитата:
Goatzin cubs have claws on their wings. What if his descendants will keep them even as adults?


Neoarchaeopteryx?
It is very interesting idea!
But is it possible evolutionary?
May be it will be something like neoteny?

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Inia geoffrensis - will extinct (algocetus is grass eating, we need fish eating dolphin like mammal, may be small).


If we make an omnivourus dolphin for Orinoco and Amazon Rivers from Nasua nasua? They can swim, eat frogs and fishes & females live in large groups, consisting of 15 to 30 animals.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 18.06.23 15:09. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So fo..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So for the Marvelous forest you can also describe dwarf, nocturnal arboreal armadillo the descendant of one of this species:
Dasypus septemcinctus
Euphractus sexcinctus
Dasypus novemcinctus
Who will be the prey for neocladosictis
The name mirimtatu ( mirim means small in tupinamba, tatu - armadillo in tupi)


It's a cool idea! It could be a dwarf species related to the Jurumin. Also, tatumirim would be the correct way of writing it.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
And we talk about these animals
Tiriba - from Brotogeris tirica
Karumboi (in tapiete - he eats snake) - from mongoose. But I think he would be not like real mongoose, he would be like Galidia elegans (also red, but not only with a striped tail, but with a completely striped body, only with ginger head).


I'll work on this description. Would it have a tiger-like fur?

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:

And we need to give a name to mouse-sized mongooses one smaller ticks and small spiders eating and one bigger eating little scorpions, centipedes and poison dart frogs.

But it will be difficult to give them indians' names.


We can use composite names with timbu, which means animal/mammal or opossum. It can be used for both.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Longnosed mongoose! It will be interesting!
It will be like hybrid of Myrmecophaga tridactyla & Eupleres goudotii.


Yes! It's an interesting species.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Neoarchaeopteryx?
It is very interesting idea!
But is it possible evolutionary?
May be it will be something like neoteny?


Neoteny is an interesting evolutive mechanism, but would the hoatzin still be able to fly?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 18.06.23 22:02. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: It ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It could be a dwarf species related to the Jurumin. Also, tatumirim would be the correct way of writing it.


It can be like Chlamyphorus truncatus.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Would it have a tiger-like fur?


Not completely. It will be like Galidia elegans with the same stripes not only on the tail but on the body too. Only head not red but ginger.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We can use composite names with timbu, which means animal/mammal or opossum. It can be used for both.


I propose such variants:
Sanguya-aguara - (in tupi "sanguya" (correctly writing sanguja, but spelling Sanguya, in tapiete just anguya) means any myomorphs, aguara - means racoon) - so the name will translate mouse-racoon - this will be name of smaller mongoose
Urare-aguara - (in tupi "urare" means animal from the family Echimyidae) - this will be name of bigger mongoose

Maybe better use name from tapiete? Because in spanish sanguja means leech or bloodsucker.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
but would the hoatzin still be able to fly?


I think yes!

So what do you think to make omnivourus, but more piscivorous "dolphin" (who can also eat frogs, snakes, crustaceans, and may be molluscs if he had very powerful jaws) from Nasua nasua in Orinoco and Amazon River? Or only in Orinoco? But also he could eat fruits that are falling from the trees, for example, fruits of Euterpe oleracea, Mauritia flexuosa, Inga edulis.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.06.23 03:36. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I pro..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I propose such variants:
Sanguya-aguara - (in tupi "sanguya" (correctly writing sanguja, but spelling Sanguya, in tapiete just anguya) means any myomorphs, aguara - means racoon) - so the name will translate mouse-racoon - this will be name of smaller mongoose
Urare-aguara - (in tupi "urare" means animal from the family Echimyidae) - this will be name of bigger mongoose

Maybe better use name from tapiete? Because in spanish sanguja means leech or bloodsucker.


I like these name, but they could also be timbusaguya and timburare. Timbu is any mammal (mostly used to opossums) in Guarani.
We could use urare in the name of the pholivorous Echimyidae that you mentioned some time ago. It could be part of a genus of very specialized herbivorous species, with all of its diet coming from leaves. There could ve a related species that eats bamboo.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So what do you think to make omnivourus, but more piscivorous "dolphin" (who can also eat frogs, snakes, crustaceans, and may be molluscs if he had very powerful jaws) from Nasua nasua in Orinoco and Amazon River? Or only in Orinoco? But also he could eat fruits that are falling from the trees, for example, fruits of Euterpe oleracea, Mauritia flexuosa, Inga edulis.


Would it be plausible? We already have the Tapiraiauara and the iara, which are still in transition to aquatic lifestyle. I don’t know if between the Holocene and the Neocene would have enough time for the Nasua nasua to become aquatic like a dolphin.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.06.23 06:56. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: We ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We could use urare in the name of the pholivorous Echimyidae that you mentioned some time ago.


In Orinoco delta I wanted to settle Mesomys hispidus in carib simurukure, it will be analogue of Bradypus variegatus (with the same strategy of making gardens of algae on the body). May be it will make new genus

Bamboo eating Echimyidae with tupi name urare better make from Kannabateomys amblyonyx and may be in Atlantic forest too.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Timbu is any mammal (mostly used to opossums) in Guarani.


I don't really want to name mongooses with name of opossums
south american raccoons are a little bit closely to mongooses then opossums. And small mongooses will eat scorpions and racoons - crabs so even diets a bit similar.

So, as for me, better give tupi names aguare-sunguya & aguare-urare.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Tapiraiauara


He is now more like crocodile.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Yara


Yara is now more like seal.

May be in early neocene a little group of Nasua nasua in Delta of Orinoco river became live in semiaquatic way of life. And they have become faster a dolphin-like animals, but may be real omnivourus (they will not have powerful jaws & will eat only soft food: fish, frogs, young snakes, young crustaceans with still weak armor, insect larvae, big worms and leeches, we will come up with large river slugs for them and their distribution will very much depend on the distribution of coastal fruit trees, the fruits of which they will feed on if they fall into the water. So they will be small but collective "dolphins" (at least the females), smaller than Cephalorhynchus eutropia or Cephalorhynchus hectori and only distributed in the Orinoco.
So they will not be competitors not to eiba, not to yara, not to tapiruiara, not to algocetus.

May be they will not be completely like dolphins but like Peregocetus
or like protocetus
Which variant is better?




P.S. Could you please write that Akutituicha is some analogue of Victorlemoinea and make her the similar stripes on legs, neck and face like on the picture


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.06.23 13:08. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: In Or..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
In Orinoco delta I wanted to settle Mesomys hispidus in carib simurukure, it will be analogue of Bradypus variegatus (with the same strategy of making gardens of algae on the body). May be it will make new genus

Bamboo eating Echimyidae with tupi name urare better make from Kannabateomys amblyonyx and may be in Atlantic forest too.


Ok! Kannabateomys are interesting rodents, with their monogamous and biparental lifestyle. They could have the size of an American porcupine.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I don't really want to name mongooses with name of opossums
south american raccoons are a little bit closely to mongooses then opossums. And small mongooses will eat scorpions and racoons - crabs so even diets a bit similar.

So, as for me, better give tupi names aguare-sunguya & aguare-urare.


Ok.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Which variant is better?


The second. It makes the animal different of the Tapiraiauara. Maybe there is a close related genus living in the Hippolyte and Amazon rivers, having dispersed there or when their common ancestor still walked or by swimming through the coast? They could have the size of a Sotalia dolphin.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Could you please write that Akutituicha is some analogue of Victorlemoinea and make her the similar stripes on legs, neck and face like on the picture


I'll edit it.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 19.06.23 13:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Kan..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Kannabateomys are interesting rodents, with their monogamous and biparental lifestyle. They could have the size of an American porcupine.


Interesting!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The second. It makes the animal different of the Tapiraiauara. Maybe there is a close related genus living in the Hippolyte and Amazon rivers, having dispersed there or when their common ancestor still walked or by swimming through the coast? They could have the size of a Sotalia dolphin.


Ok!
So from coati we are making in Peru forests an ant-eating "bear" and in Orinoko and rivers of Amazonia a fruit and fish eating "dolphin".

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I'll edit it.


Thank you very much! I think such details are making animal much more interesting.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 21.06.23 12:33. Заголовок: wovoka May be in ea..


wovoka

 цитата:
May be in early neocene a little group of Nasua nasua in Delta of Orinoco river became live in semiaquatic way of life. And they have become faster a dolphin-like animals, but may be real omnivourus (they will not have powerful jaws & will eat only soft food: fish, frogs, young snakes, young crustaceans with still weak armor, insect larvae, big worms and leeches, we will come up with large river slugs for them and their distribution will very much depend on the distribution of coastal fruit trees, the fruits of which they will feed on if they fall into the water. So they will be small but collective "dolphins" (at least the females), smaller than Cephalorhynchus eutropia or Cephalorhynchus hectori and only distributed in the Orinoco. So they will not be competitors not to eiba, not to yara, not to tapiruiara, not to algocetus.


Cetaceans are evoving again, but from anouher ancestor...
But why we have too many "whales" and "seals" from different ancestors at one place?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 21.06.23 22:20. Заголовок: лягушка пишет: algo..


лягушка пишет:

 цитата:
algocetus


algocetus is "manatees", yara is "seal", tapiruiara is "ambulocetus" (so he is not yet a whale, he is still in niche of "crocodile"), eiba is "otter", and the water animal that i propose from coati is not a usual "dolphin" he is omnivourus. You'll see, when i describe it.

лягушка пишет:

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Cetaceans are evolving again, but from anouther ancestor...


whom do you mean?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 24.06.23 23:08. Заголовок: JOrnitho what do you..


JOrnitho what do you think about such idea. In Madagascar lives Eulemur mongoz - mongoose lemur.
If me make on the contrary: lemur mongoose, I mean mongoose looking like lemur, with lemur way if life and diet. May be make him absolutely herbivorous, eating fruits, berries, leaves, edible roots, may be nuts and mushrooms.

By the way Urva javanica that was untroduced to Caribbean islands is omnivourus, so it can become herbivourus.

But where we could settle this lemur mongoose in South America?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.06.23 15:17. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: JOrni..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
JOrnitho what do you think about such idea. In Madagascar lives Eulemur mongoz - mongoose lemur.
If me make on the contrary: lemur mongoose, I mean mongoose looking like lemur, with lemur way if life and diet. May be make him absolutely herbivorous, eating fruits, berries, leaves, edible roots, may be nuts and mushrooms.


It's an interesting idea, but I think that this mongoose could be more like a squirrel, with a fluffy tail that helps it maintain balance while moving through trees. It could also be capable of jumping between branches.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But where we could settle this lemur mongoose in South America?


I think that Amazon could be a good place for it. One relatard species could be present in the Atlantic rainforest too.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.06.23 16:39. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Eul..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Eulemur mongoz



So our mongoose will look the same?
It is have fluffy tail and capable jumping between branches. His length is 31 to 45 cm, tail length is 45 to 65 cm. But we can make him some other squirrel features.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.06.23 20:22. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: So ou..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So our mongoose will look the same?
It is have fluffy tail and capable jumping between branches. His length is 31 to 45 cm, tail length is 45 to 65 cm. But we can make him some other squirrel features.


Yes, but I thought that it could have feet more similar to that of squirrel or rodent, rather than a primate.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.06.23 20:27. Заголовок: But the first idea w..


But the first idea was exactly to make lemur mongoose, not a squirrel mongoose. Squirrel honey-eating mongoose we can make for Atlantic forest or some other South American forest.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.06.23 21:57. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But t..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But the first idea was exactly to make lemur mongoose, not a squirrel mongoose. Squirrel honey-eating mongoose we can make for Atlantic forest or some other South American forest.


I see. Then it can have a more primate-like appearance.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 25.06.23 22:53. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I s..


JOrnitho пишет:

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I see. Then it can have a more primate-like appearance.


I've alredy decided to add lemur mongoose to the chapter about black jaguape and your Ipochereu will hunt him.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 01:02. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I'..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I've alredy decided to add lemur mongoose to the chapter about black jaguape and your Ipochereu will hunt him.


Ok! Are we still going to have the squirrel-mongoose as a close related species in the Atlantic forest?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 06:52. Заголовок: Yes of course!..


Yes of course!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 07:34. Заголовок: Yes of course! Kuat..


Yes of course!

Kuatirana-aguare ( kuatirana - squirell in guarani, aguare - racoon in tupi).

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 08:39. Заголовок: But I think we have ..


But I think we have already enough species to make chapter about marvelous forest
1. Atlantic cherry and 2. lowland jamelan
3. Grey-headed marmoset
4. Common sugar opossum
5. Blue-fronted macaw
6. Great Suindara
7. Great inamu
8. Tamoio cat
9. Great false woodpecker
10. Eyra
11. Panapanas
12. Southern night tapaculo
13. Gold-fronted erythrophonia
14. Rufous-bellied choca, or Rufous-bellied antshrike
15. Crested singing falcon
17. Mborevi
18. Akutituicha
19. Pukutirai gaba

Species that need a description
20. Tatumirim
21. Tiriba
22. Urare - may be it will be like hybrid of porcupine & Ailurus fulgens and with diet of panda.
23. Karumboi
24. A. Sanguya-aguara; B. Urare-aguara
25. Kuatirana-aguara
26. Tärähënötú - (bee in tapiete) descendent of Megalopta amoena (will be social night bee). But I'm not really sure if it will survive to neocene.
27. Patina - brazil nightblooming Dragonfruit (Hylocereus undatus or just Nightblooming cactus) (patina - it is in tapiete name of cactus that in english called Pricklypear).

It is already too much.

From genus Megalopta I think only two species can survive to neocene: Megalopta genalis (but in Central America and Columbia may be then it will spread on all Amazonia) & Megalopta mura (but in Amazonia may be then it will spread to the south regions).

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 11:54. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: It i..


wovoka пишет:

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It is already too much.


Maybe we could remove some of these species. I think that we can remove the 13 and 14,.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 16:47. Заголовок: I like these birds, ..


I like these birds, may be will remove 26 & 27.

Or let's make two chapters about Marvelous forest. For example: one part about diurnal life of the forest and the second about nocturnal life. Only it is necessary to divide the animals into those who will enter to the diurnal and nocturnal parts of the chapter.

And about the idea of adoption of the femail of jaguarete that lost her own cub the cub of Eira, may be she find him when he lost his mother and began to take care of him and feed him with milk for 2 months, but then expelled him, after which the female of Eira, who had her own kittens, found him and began to raise him as her own cub. Will this variant work? I still think it would be an interesting storyline of the chapter.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 21:17. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Or le..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Or let's make two chapters about Marvelous forest. For example: one part about diurnal life of the forest and the second about nocturnal life. Only it is necessary to divide the animals into those who will enter to the diurnal and nocturnal parts of the chapter.


I like this idea. I think that opossums, inamus, tapaculos and owl would appear in the night chapter.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
And about the idea of adoption of the femail of jaguarete that lost her own cub the cub of Eira, may be she find him when he lost his mother and began to take care of him and feed him with milk for 2 months, but then expelled him, after which the female of Eira, who had her own kittens, found him and began to raise him as her own cub. Will this variant work? I still think it would be an interesting storyline of the chapter.


I think that we could use your original idea.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 26.06.23 23:19. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that opossums, inamus, tapaculos and owl would appear in the night chapter.


Also night bees and night blooming cactus.
And tatumirim: we've made him just for saber-tooth opossum hunting on him.
And as far as I remember your Tamoio cat is also nocturnal.
And we can make some new 2 or 3 nocturnal species.

The diurnal species is already enough.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that we could use your original idea.


Thank you!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.06.23 03:06. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: And w..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
And we can make some new 2 or 3 nocturnal species.


One of them could be a rodent. What type of interesting creature we can make with the Oligoryzomys nigripes?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.06.23 12:26. Заголовок: wovoka Another anim..


wovoka
Another animal that could appear in the night chapter is a bat. We could have one that feeds of parasites in the fur of large herbivores.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.06.23 16:24. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Ano..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Another animal that could appear in the night chapter is a bat. We could have one that feeds of parasites in the fur of large herbivores.


Good idea! But do we have nocturnal large herbivores?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
What type of interesting creature we can make with the Oligoryzomys nigripes?


Something like that
by the color and form of body. It's diet will be insects, seeds, nuts and berries.
It's Xianshou songae.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
One of them could be a rodent.


I want to "reanimate" such animals from some rodents (I mean only body shape and color of the animal).
Like omnivourus Docodon
Скрытый текст

and Adalatherium hui (he was herbivorous, but we can make it omnivorous or carnivorous )
Скрытый текст

Both can be nocturnal. There will not be bigger than badger.

And from some opossum we can make something like nocturnal hybrid of Petauroides volans (by shape of body especially with a short pretty muzzle and large furry ears, very long fluffy tail but without flying membranes) and Spilocuscus maculatus (by the color with the same huge ginger spots on white fur).
And it will be interesting that 50% of its diet was sweet resin or sweet gum from some tree, 25 % leaves, and 25 % insects living on tree (first of all ants) (so it will have long sticky tongue). There are trees in the Atlantic forest with sweet resin or sweet gum? May be eucalyptus?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.06.23 17:30. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Good ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Good idea! But do we have nocturnal large herbivores?


I thought that it could feed on mborevis and barocavias, cleaning them while they rest. The barocavia is also a nocturnal feeder, I think.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Something like that
by the color and form of body. It's diet will be insects, seeds, nuts and berries.
It's Xianshou songae.


I like it! This one could fill theniche of squirrels during the night.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I want to "reanimate" such animals from some rodents (I mean only body shape and color of the animal).
Like omnivourus Docodon
Скрытый текст
and Adalatherium hui (he was herbivorous, but we can make it omnivorous or carnivorous )
Скрытый текст
Both can be nocturnal. There will not be bigger than badger.


The first could be a descendant of Holochilus or Nectomys tat became more terrestrial. The second I think that would be better as a descendant of a mustelid like the Galictis that became an analogue to the badgers.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
There are trees in the Atlantic forest with sweet resin or sweet gum? May be eucalyptus?


Eucalyptus arevery common invasive species here in Brazil. I think that some could very well survive into the Neocene. The presence of descendants of these plants would cause some species to adapt to them. Local plants would need to develop adaptations to coexist with it and some animals could evove to feed on it, maybe a monkey that eats its leaves? Another thing is that eucalyptus easily catch fire, would it becomes more common in the lowland Atlantic forests? Would other plants adapt to survive these wildfires?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 27.06.23 23:01. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: The..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The barocavia is also a nocturnal feeder, I think.


I'm not sure.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I thought that it could feed on mborevis and barocavias, cleaning them while they rest.


It could be! But if we make really big nocturnal herbivorous animal? Only who will be the ancestor?
Cavia fulgida or Cavia aperea. To make something like Coryphodon
the same as on the picture.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
This one could fill the niche of squirrels during the night.


Yes it can.
We can call it Pseudoxianshou.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The first could be a descendant of Holochilus or Nectomys tat became more terrestrial.


Better Nectomys squamipes, it will tear up the ground in search of rodents hiding in holes, soil invertebrates and edible roots, tubers and bulbs of plants.
he will have excellent sense of smell and hearing, but not very good eyesight. Will be big as badger.
The name Pseudodocodon.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The second I think that would be better as a descendant of a mustelid like the Galictis that became an analogue to the badgers.


It is not interesting to make Mustelidae from Mustelidae, I really want to make it from rodent, may be Oligoryzomys nigripes or Akodon cursor.
Pseudoadalatherium

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Would other plants adapt to survive these wildfires?


I don't think so. Then it can be acacia, that is invasive in Atlantic forest.

For example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_auriculiformis with edible gum, leaves, flowers, seeds.
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_mearnsii with edible gum, edible endo-mycorrhizal fungi, edible fleshy & oil rich elaiosome of seeds, flowers provide very nitrogen rich pollen with no nectar, the protein-rich nectar in the leaf axials. The cracks and crevices in the wattle's bark are home for many insects and invertebrates. In Tasmania and South Australia from which this tree introduced the tree is home to scarab beetles & various grubs, such as wood moths.The rare Tasmanian hairstreak butterfly lays her eggs in these cracks, which hatch to produce caterpillar larva attended by ants (Iridomyrmex sp.) that feed off the sweet exudates from the larva. A. mearnsii is used similarly as a larval host plant and food source by the imperial hairstreak, Jalmenus evagoras.

I think second variant is better to settle on it that animal that I wanted made "from some opossum something like nocturnal hybrid of Petauroides volans (by shape of body especially with a short pretty muzzle and large furry ears, very long fluffy tail but without flying membranes) and Spilocuscus maculatus (by the color with the same huge ginger spots on white fur)". It will eat acacia's gum, leaves, nitrogen rich pollen from flowers, seeds, fungi, insects hiding under bark: ants, larvas of beetles and canterpillars of wood moths and butterflies (especially if this canterpillars have sweet exudates which will eat ants). it will have long sticky tongue to eat insects and sharp claws to peel off the bark. So he will help to pollinate the tree, spread tree seeds and spores of endomycorrhizal fungi, protect the tree from pests.

And also will be interesting to "reanimate" necrolestes
Скрытый текст


May be from Tuco-tuco

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.06.23 01:57. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: It co..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
It could be! But if we make really big nocturnal herbivorous animal? Only who will be the ancestor?
Cavia fulgida or Cavia aperea. To make something like Coryphodon
the same as on the picture.


Any of the two could be a good choice, but I would like if it was the Cavia fulgida. This species could be endemic to the Atlantic Forest.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Better Nectomys squamipes, it will tear up the ground in search of rodents hiding in holes, soil invertebrates and edible roots, tubers and bulbs of plants.
he will have excellent sense of smell and hearing, but not very good eyesight. Will be big as badger.
The name Pseudodocodon.


I agree!

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
It is not interesting to make Mustelidae from Mustelidae, I really want to make it from rodent, may be Oligoryzomys nigripes or Akodon cursor.
Pseudoadalatherium


I think that we could have the ancestor being the Akodon cursor.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
For example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_auriculiformis with edible gum, leaves, flowers, seeds.
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_mearnsii with edible gum, edible endo-mycorrhizal fungi, edible fleshy & oil rich elaiosome of seeds, flowers provide very nitrogen rich pollen with no nectar, the protein-rich nectar in the leaf axials. The cracks and crevices in the wattle's bark are home for many insects and invertebrates. In Tasmania and South Australia from which this tree introduced the tree is home to scarab beetles & various grubs, such as wood moths.The rare Tasmanian hairstreak butterfly lays her eggs in these cracks, which hatch to produce caterpillar larva attended by ants (Iridomyrmex sp.) that feed off the sweet exudates from the larva. A. mearnsii is used similarly as a larval host plant and food source by the imperial hairstreak, Jalmenus evagoras.


In this case, I think that we can use the Acacia and even make some species of insects associated to it.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
And also will be interesting to "reanimate" necrolestes
Скрытый текст
May be from Tuco-tuco


Interesting, this Tuco-tuco could have a flat skull to help excavate the ground.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 28.06.23 05:51. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: but..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
but I would like if it was the Cavia fulgida. This species could be endemic to the Atlantic Forest.


Ok!
And you want to make a bat that would eat its parasites who will be ancestor?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I agree!


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that we could have the ancestor being the Akodon cursor.


Will be interesting to describe evolution from small rodent to omnivourus and on the half carnivourus ( he can have diet like of galictis) animal became like Adalatherium.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
In this case, I think that we can use the Acacia and even make some species of insects associated to it.


And better second variant of Acacia. Some ants ( they will be nocturnal ants!!!), some butterfly that canterpillar make sweet excudate for ants, some grubs of wood moth and scarab beetles. And not only insects, but it's symbiotic fungi.

You have nothing said about the idea of this animal:
Скрытый текст

You don't like the idea?

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
this Tuco-tuco could have a flat skull to help excavate the ground.


Yes, it could! But there are several species of tuco- tuco, and it seems to me no one in Atlantic forest. What species of tuco-tucos can get there?

And that is enouph species for nocturnal chapter.

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wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
And you want to make a bat that would eat its parasites who will be ancestor?


It could be the Myotis bat.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
You don't like the idea?


I like it!

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Yes, it could! But there are several species of tuco- tuco, and it seems to me no one in Atlantic forest. What species of tuco-tucos can get there?


I think that Ctenomys brasiliensis could expand its territory.

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JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
It could be the Myotis bat.


Myotis nigricans or Myotis albescens?
Which is better
They are the most widespread in that region.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like it!


Thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:

I think that Ctenomys brasiliensis could expand its territory.


Are you sure it will survive to neocene?

According to iucnredlist
https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/5800/22192465
The Data Deficient about this species.

"This species is known only from the type locality and no population data is available".

May be it will be Ctenomys torquatus? It has more chances to survive. But it is distributed somewhat to the south of the Atlantic forest, although it is possible that by the Neocene it will be able to spread to the north and get into the Atlantic forest.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 00:35. Заголовок: The ants that will l..


The ants that will live in acacia may be Camponotus sericeiventris. Now they are diurnal but they can became nocturnal. There are now nocturnal species of Campopotus.
The canterpillar that will make sweet excudat for ants may be Strymon mulucha.
Wood moth eating acacia wood can be Morpheis xylotribus.
The larvas of scarab beetles eating acacia wood will be interesting to make from Diloboderus abderus.
On the tree can be fungi Lycoperdon pyriforme.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 00:53. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Myoti..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Myotis nigricans or Myotis albescens?
Which is better
They are the most widespread in that region.


I think that it can be Myotis nigricans.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
May be it will be Ctenomys torquatus? It has more chances to survive. But it is distributed somewhat to the south of the Atlantic forest, although it is possible that by the Neocene it will be able to spread to the north and get into the Atlantic forest.


Then we can use its one. There is also the small Blarinomys breviceps that could grow larger and evolve into the species that we talked about.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
The ants that will live in acacia may be Camponotus sericeiventris. Now they are diurnal but they can became nocturnal. There are now nocturnal species of Campopotus.
The canterpillar that will make sweet excudat for ants may be Strymon mulucha.
Wood moth eating acacia wood can be Morpheis xylotribus.
The larvas of scarab beetles eating acacia wood will be interesting to make from Diloboderus abderus.
On the tree can be fungi Lycoperdon pyriforme.


I agree.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 14:18. Заголовок: wovoka I think that ..


wovoka
I think that we could have a descendant of the eucalyptus, but it could live in the dry forests of transitional areas between Atlantic Forest, Caatinga and Cerrado, with some even living in the Cerrado. They would fare well in these areas that have wildfires. Then we can make some interesting animals adapted to live with these trees, like a monkey adapted to eat its leaves.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 20:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that it can be Myotis nigricans.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Then we can use its one. There is also the small Blarinomys breviceps that could grow larger and evolve into the species that we talked about.


I don't even know whom to choose: Ctenomys torquatus or Blarinomys breviceps. Better you decide, you are the specialist in rodents and this is your native land & you know everything about this region, unlike me.

I was writing that Acacia mearnsii in Australia has symbiosis with different edible mycorrhizal fungi that love to eat different marsupials. This fungi are Mesophelliaceae from the genera Castoreum and Mesophellia, which can make symbiosis with acacias and eucalyptus. There are two fungis Mesophelliaceae that I found in South America just from south of Brazil in Eucalyptus plantations of Rio Grande do Sul is invasive Chondrogaster pachysporus and Chondrogaster angustisporus where it is live in symbiosis with different eucalyptus, it is tuber like mushroom, but I couldn't find out if they are edible. May be one of them can make a symbiosis to neocene with Acacia mearnsii and our big eared opossum and may be necrolestes like animal will learn to find it by smell underground, pull it out of the ground and adapt to eat it and spread its spores.

The other variant to take real tuber and make mycorrhizal symbiosis with it and acacia, but there is only one tuber in the world that sometimes make such symbiosis is chinese Tuber indicum, but is not cultivated in South America, like Tuber melanosporum, Tuber borchii and Tuber magnatum in Southern Chile and Argentina.

The only tuber, and it is edible by different animals, that can be find in Atlantic forest is invasive Tuber floridanum that make symbiosis with also invasive Carya illinoinensis.

So what do you think, which variant is better:
1. Chondrogaster pachysporus or Chondrogaster angustisporus (but we don't know if they are edible and there is no information if at list one of them can make nowadays symbiosis with acacia, but taking into account that a lot of Mesophelliaceae can do it, may be it also will make it to neocene);
2. Tuber floridanum (we know that it is edible by different animals (in North America it's squirrels and wild pigs), but this mushroom is very malodorant & have probably a multimillion-year ecological connection with Carya illinoinensis and if this tree will survive in Atlantic forest to neocene this connection will stay very strong).


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that we could have a descendant of the eucalyptus, but it could live in the dry forests of transitional areas between Atlantic Forest, Caatinga and Cerrado, with some even living in the Cerrado. They would fare well in these areas that have wildfires. Then we can make some interesting animals adapted to live with these trees, like a monkey adapted to eat its leaves.


About species of eucalyptus that are cultivating in huge plantations in different regions of Brazil
https://www.ieabioenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IEA_Bioenergy_Task43_PR2011-02.pdf

So it can be a separate chapter about eucalyptus forest in some region of Brazil. Or eucalyptus & acacia forest, because these trees often cultivate together because mycorrhizal symbionts of acacia (fungis and Rhizobias) enrich the soil with nitrogen.

So we can make monkeys living on eucalyptus and every species that we decided will live on Acacia mearnsii (including big eared opossum, ants, butterfly, moth, scarab beetle, mushroom, and may be pseudonecrolestes that could also eat that mushrooms) we can transfer to the chapter about Atlantic forest to the chapter about eucalyptus & acacia forest. It can be like a world of little Australia in Brazil with a lot species of marsupials evolving from opossums. May be even "prehistoric Australia" with big marsupials, like Nimbadon huge bear-like prehistoric marsupial living on gigantic eucalyptus.

Скрытый текст


May be this forest will be in state Rio Grande do Sul?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 21:44. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I don..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I don't even know whom to choose: Ctenomys torquatus or Blarinomys breviceps. Better you decide, you are the specialist in rodents and this is your native land & you know everything about this region, unlike me.


Blarinomys breviceps is better. This species already lives in the Atlantic forest and could evolve to the species that we talked about. It would also be nearly blind.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So what do you think, which variant is better:
1. Chondrogaster pachysporus or Chondrogaster angustisporus (but we don't know if they are edible and there is no information if at list one of them can make nowadays symbiosis with acacia, but taking into account that a lot of Mesophelliaceae can do it, may be it also will make it to neocene);
2. Tuber floridanum (we know that it is edible by different animals (in North America it's squirrels and wild pigs), but this mushroom is very malodorant & have probably a multimillion-year ecological connection with Carya illinoinensis and if this tree will survive in Atlantic forest to neocene this connection will stay very strong).


I think that the number 2 is better, since we know that its edible.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
So it can be a separate chapter about eucalyptus forest in some region of Brazil. Or eucalyptus & acacia forest, because these trees often cultivate together because mycorrhizal symbionts of acacia (fungis and Rhizobias) enrich the soil with nitrogen.

So we can make monkeys living on eucalyptus and every species that we decided will live on Acacia mearnsii (including big eared opossum, ants, butterfly, moth, scarab beetle, mushroom, and may be pseudonecrolestes that could also eat that mushrooms) we can transfer to the chapter about Atlantic forest to the chapter about eucalyptus & acacia forest. It can be like a world of little Australia in Brazil with a lot species of marsupials evolving from opossums. May be even "prehistoric Australia" with big marsupials, like Nimbadon huge bear-like prehistoric marsupial living on gigantic eucalyptus.


I like this idea! The Atlantic forest is formed by different types of vegetation, so forests of acacia and eucalyptus could be part of it, as an effect that the humans left behind. I approve the idea of it being found in the Rio Grande do Sul, perhaps in lowland areas of Santa Catarina and a small part of Argentina (Misiones). Regarding the fauna, while I like the idea of a "little Australia", we can't forget that placentals will still be a greater part of the animals living here.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 22:42. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Bla..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Blarinomys breviceps is better. This species already lives in the Atlantic forest and could evolve to the species that we talked about. It would also be nearly blind.


Ok!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that the number 2 is better, since we know that its edible.


Ok! Let it be.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like this idea! The Atlantic forest is formed by different types of vegetation, so forests of acacia and eucalyptus could be part of it, as an effect that the humans left behind. I approve the idea of it being found in the Rio Grande do Sul, perhaps in lowland areas of Santa Catarina and a small part of Argentina (Misiones).


So the idea of Atlantic forest grow up to three different chapters : Diurnal Atlantic forest, Nocturnal Atlantic forest, South Eucalypt&Acacia Atlantic forest.

I think there will be not so much forest fires in this forest. Before humans came to Australia this continent was a continent of ancient forests with gigantic trees including gigantic eucalyptes. The humans destroyed this ecosystem and caused forest fires.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Regarding the fauna, while I like the idea of a "little Australia", we can't forget that placentals will still be a greater part of the animals living here.


Of course!

But Nimbadon like opossum can be possible living in the most ancient part of forest with gigantic eucalyptes: about 100 m.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 29.06.23 23:54. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But N..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But Nimbadon like opossum can be possible living in the most ancient part of forest with gigantic eucalyptes: about 100 m.


In this case, I think that it's possible. I also had a somewhat crazy idea. Since sloths are extinct, maybe there could be an opossum that evolved to eat leaves in their absence. Or at least only of eucalyptus. To not be in competition with monkeys, it could be nocturnal.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 10:04. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: In ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
In this case, I think that it's possible.


Good!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I also had a somewhat crazy idea. Since sloths are extinct, maybe there could be an opossum that evolved to eat leaves in their absence. Or at least only of eucalyptus. To not be in competition with monkeys, it could be nocturnal.


I like your crazy idea!

Let it be today the day of crazy ideas .
Marsupials have never had hooves, with the exception of one very rare species, Chaeropus ecaudatus. “His forelimbs ended in two functional fingers with hooves resembling the hooves of a pig or deer. On the hind limbs there was a fourth elongated finger with a relatively large claw in the form of a hoof, which helped the animal to actively move. The remaining fingers on the limbs were not very functional and intended primarily for hair care".
If we make such pseudoungulated nocturnal opossum in eucalyptus forest. It will be like Chaeropus ecaudatus with "hooves", long nose, big ears, big eyes, he will have the size of Tragulus, it will fill the niche of forest tragulus. It will feed exclusively on sweet fruits and especially berries, small edible mushrooms, will have a long nose and a long tongue, and will be able to feed on the nectar of various shrubs, pollinating them. Therefore, he will have very tasty, almost sweet meat, so many nocturnal predators, especially neocladosiktis, will hunt for him. Therefore, the pseudo-hoofed opossum will have to learn how to run very quickly over rough terrain, jumping over roots and dodging branches, that's what the "hooves" are for. Live in small groups. He will have a good sense of smell, keen hearing (for which long ears) and excellent night vision: to navigate enough starlight.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 10:10. Заголовок: wovoka I think ther..


wovoka

 цитата:
I think there will be not so much forest fires in this forest. Before humans came to Australia this continent was a continent of ancient forests with gigantic trees including gigantic eucalyptes. The humans destroyed this ecosystem and caused forest fires


But eucalyptes is a pyrophyte, it has adaptations to cause forest fires using essential oils, and also to avoid it. Their canopy grows better when its lower brances are burned, ash from burning other eucalyptes helps them to grow, and fruits are opening only after fire.
This thing definitely evolved before invasion of humans...

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 13:16. Заголовок: Not every species of..


Not every species of eucalyptus are pyrophytes, for example, gigantic Eucalýptus régnans hate fires.

https://homsk.com/martin/iskusstvo-vyzhzhennoy-zemli-zachem-avstraliyskie-aborigeny-regulyarno-ustraivali-masshtabnye-pozhary
Why the fires began?
Скрытый текст


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_of_Australia
"Fire is thought to have played a role in the development and distribution of fire-adapted species from the Late Pleistocene. An increase in charcoal in sediment around 38,000 years ago coincides with dates for the inhabitation of Australia by the Indigenous Australians and suggests that man-made fires, from practices like fire-stick farming, have played an important role in the establishment and maintenance of sclerophyll forest, especially on the east coast of Australia.[8] Adaptations to fire include lignotubers and epicormic buds in Eucalyptus and Banksia species that allow fast regeneration following fire. Some genera also exhibit serotiny, the release of seed only in response to heat and/or smoke. Xanthorrhoea grass trees and some species of orchids only flower after fire."


But you are wright, I found out: most forests of Gondwana extinct 2 mln years ago.

And when people came to Sahul the map of nature zones looked this way:
Скрытый текст


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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 14:30. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Let i..


wovoka пишет:

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Let it be today the day of crazy ideas .
Marsupials have never had hooves, with the exception of one very rare species, Chaeropus ecaudatus. “His forelimbs ended in two functional fingers with hooves resembling the hooves of a pig or deer. On the hind limbs there was a fourth elongated finger with a relatively large claw in the form of a hoof, which helped the animal to actively move. The remaining fingers on the limbs were not very functional and intended primarily for hair care".
If we make such pseudoungulated nocturnal opossum in eucalyptus forest. It will be like Chaeropus ecaudatus with "hooves", long nose, big ears, big eyes, he will have the size of Tragulus, it will fill the niche of forest tragulus. It will feed exclusively on sweet fruits and especially berries, small edible mushrooms, will have a long nose and a long tongue, and will be able to feed on the nectar of various shrubs, pollinating them. Therefore, he will have very tasty, almost sweet meat, so many nocturnal predators, especially neocladosiktis, will hunt for him. Therefore, the pseudo-hoofed opossum will have to learn how to run very quickly over rough terrain, jumping over roots and dodging branches, that's what the "hooves" are for. Live in small groups. He will have a good sense of smell, keen hearing (for which long ears) and excellent night vision: to navigate enough starlight.


I like this idea! We could also have these Leptictidium-like that you sugested some time ago descending of Monodelphis opossums.
I was thinking about the marsupials that would replace the sloths and thought that they could have the appearance of robust tree kangaroos, with longer forelimbs that are used to grasp branches and a prehensile tail to help them not fall. A mix of sloth, kangaroo and opossum.

лягушка пишет:

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But eucalyptes is a pyrophyte, it has adaptations to cause forest fires using essential oils, and also to avoid it. Their canopy grows better when its lower



wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Not every species of eucalyptus are pyrophytes, for example, gigantic Eucalýptus régnans hate fires.


I really see no problem if this part of the Atlantic forest is prone to wildfires. This would make the chapter more interesting, because now the animals also need to adapt to survive this condition. We could even have the other plants of this region developing characteristics that allow them to survive the flames.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 18:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I l..


JOrnitho пишет:

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I like this idea!


Thank you!

JOrnitho пишет:

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We could also have these Leptictidium-like that you sugested some time ago descending of Monodelphis opossums.


Very good!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I was thinking about the marsupials that would replace the sloths and thought that they could have the appearance of robust tree kangaroos, with longer forelimbs that are used to grasp branches and a prehensile tail to help them not fall. A mix of sloth, kangaroo and opossum.


I like it!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I really see no problem if this part of the Atlantic forest is prone to wildfires. This would make the chapter more interesting, because now the animals also need to adapt to survive this condition. We could even have the other plants of this region developing characteristics that allow them to survive the flames.


But if it often will be fires, we will not have gigantic 100 m eucalyptus. And then Rio Grande Do Sul, unlike Australia, is not arid, but rather humid region (1304 mm of precipitation per year). So fires, if they occur, will only occur in very dry years.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 18:40. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But i..


wovoka пишет:

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But if it often will be fires, we will not have gigantic 100 m eucalyptus. And then Rio Grande Do Sul, unlike Australia, is not arid, but rather humid region (1304 mm of precipitation per year). So fires, if they occur, will only occur in very dry years.


Yes, these eucalyptus would not need to be that much adapted to wildfires in such region. However, the chapter could happen during a very dry period, with a fire starting.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 21:46. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: How..


JOrnitho пишет:

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However, the chapter could happen during a very dry period, with a fire starting.


Yes, there is no neocene chapter about forest fire. It will be interesting part of the plot!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 30.06.23 22:50. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Yes, ..


wovoka пишет:

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Yes, there is no neocene chapter about forest fire. It will be interesting part of the plot!


Yes! We should start doing a bestiary list for this chapter.
Another animal that could live in these forests is a descendant of the guineafowl. It could feed on the ground, forming small flocks. They could have the size of a turkey and the males could have evolved colorful skin in the face.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 00:04. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Ano..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Another animal that could live in these forests is a descendant of the guineafowl. It could feed on the ground, forming small flocks. They could have the size of a turkey and the males could have evolved colorful skin in the face.


Very good idea!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Yes! We should start doing a bestiary list for this chapter.



Ok! Let's do the bestiary:

Eucalyptus & Acacia forest:
1. Eucalyptus grandis (in description we wright that its mycorrhizal fungi is descendent of Chondrogaster pachysporus).
2. Acacia mearnsii
3. Tuber floridanum - mycorrhizal fungi of acacia
4. Camponotus sericeiventris - the ants that will live in acacia, now they are diurnal but they can became nocturnal.
5. Strymon mulucha - the canterpillar that will make sweet excudat for ants.
6. Morpheis xylotribus - wood moth eating acacia wood.
7. Diloboderus abderus - scarab beetles which larvas eating acacia wood.
8. Tremella fuciformis - edible mushroom that will grow on old trees of the forest.
9. Pseudonecrolestes - descendent of Blarinomys breviceps that could eat edible roots, truffles, plant tubers, bulbs, worms, underground larvae.
10. Big eared opossum - something like nocturnal hybrid of Petauroides volans (by shape of body especially with a short pretty muzzle and large furry ears, very long fluffy tail but without flying membranes) and Spilocuscus maculatus (by the color with the same huge ginger spots on white fur)". It will eat acacia's gum, leaves, nitrogen rich pollen from flowers, seeds, fungi, insects hiding under bark: ants, larvas of beetles and canterpillars of wood moths and butterflies (especially if this canterpillars have sweet exudates which will eat ants). it will have long sticky tongue to eat insects and sharp claws to peel off the bark. So he will help to pollinate the tree, spread tree seeds and spores of endomycorrhizal fungi, protect the tree from pests.
11. Pseudonimbadon - huge bear-like opossum living on gigantic eucalyptus.
12. Pseudounguleted nocturnal opossum - opossum like Chaeropus ecaudatus with forelimbs ended in two functional fingers with hooves resembling the hooves of a pig or deer. On the hind limbs it will have a fourth elongated finger with a relatively large claw in the form of a hoof, which helped the animal to actively move. The remaining fingers on the limbs were not very functional and intended primarily for hair care.
It will have long nose, big ears, big eyes, he will have the size of Tragulus, it will fill the niche of forest tragulus. It will feed exclusively on sweet fruits and especially berries, small edible mushrooms, will have a long nose and a long tongue, and will be able to feed on the nectar of various shrubs, pollinating them. Therefore, he will have very tasty, almost sweet meat, so many nocturnal predators, especially neocladosiktis, will hunt for him. Therefore, the pseudo-hoofed opossum will have to learn how to run very quickly over rough terrain, jumping over roots and dodging branches, that's what the "hooves" are for. Live in small groups. He will have a good sense of smell, keen hearing (for which long ears) and excellent night vision: to navigate enough starlight.
13. Opossum like robust tree kangaroos, with longer forelimbs that are used to grasp branches and a prehensile tail to help them not fall. A mix of sloth, kangaroo and opossum.
14. Leptictidium-like opossum descending of Monodelphis opossums.
15. Monkeys eating leaves of eucalyptus (what monkeys???).
16. Descendant of the guineafowl. It could feed on the ground, forming small flocks. They could have the size of a turkey and the males could have evolved colorful skin in the face.

We can make still maximum three more species.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 04:06. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: 15. M..


wovoka пишет:

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15. Monkeys eating leaves of eucalyptus (what monkeys???).


Do you think that the Alouatta could survive? Or we should have it being descendant of a capuchin monkey?

wovoka пишет:

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We can make still maximum three more species.


The chapter needs a terrestrial predator. We could fill one of these three with a large one.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 07:54. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Do ..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Do you think that the Alouatta could survive?


I don't know, Alouatta guariba that live in Atlantic forest is vulnerable, Alouatta caraya that is live closely is near threatened. May be the last one has chance to survive only in eucalyptus forest.

JOrnitho пишет:

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Or we should have it being descendant of a capuchin monkey?


Sapajus nigritus that live in Atlantic forest also near threatened.

So better let it be Alouatta caraya.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
The chapter needs a terrestrial predator. We could fill one of these three with a large one.


May be it will be giant mongoose that could climb on the trees?

And also we need big bird predator. Who it will be?

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 14:20. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: May b..


wovoka пишет:

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May be it will be giant mongoose that could climb on the trees?


Interesting. It could be capable of hunting monkeys in the tree canopy.

wovoka пишет:

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And also we need big bird predator. Who it will be?


It could be the descendant of some species of falcon.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 18:35. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: It ..


JOrnitho пишет:

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It could be the descendant of some species of falcon.


It can be Falco peregrinus but very big even may be like Hieraaetus moorei or a bit smaller.

or it can be other bird predator Elanus leucurus (it's hunting on opossums) we can make him like Hieraaetus moorei.

Also we can have nocturnal bird predator Falco rufigularis.

Or it can be collective big hunters Parabuteo unicinctus. But it will be more cool to make them hunting with flocks on Akutituicha herds.
Or we can describe him for some other chapter hunting with flocks on deermaras.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 20:04. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: or it..


wovoka пишет:

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or it can be other bird predator Elanus leucurus (it's hunting on opossums) we can make him like Hieraaetus moorei.


I think that Elanus leucurus could be a better ancestor.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Also we can have nocturnal bird predator Falco rufigularis.


A owl would be better to hunt in the night. Strigiformes are still around and can fill the niche of large nocturnal predators.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Or it can be collective big hunters Parabuteo unicinctus. But it will be more cool to make them hunting with flocks on Akutituicha herds.
Or we can describe him for some other chapter hunting with flocks on deermaras.


It would be better in another chapter.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 21:26. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I t..


JOrnitho пишет:

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I think that Elanus leucurus could be a better ancestor.



JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
A owl would be better to hunt in the night. Strigiformes are still around and can fill the niche of large nocturnal predators.


We can take Bubo virginianus subsp. nacurutu and make him very big for the description of the night time in eucalyptus forest.

And this will be the last species of the chapter. We can't add anyone else in the bestiary.

JOrnitho пишет:

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It would be better in another chapter.


In which one better? I think it is a good idea & it is important not to forget it!!!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 21:53. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: We ca..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
We can take Bubo virginianus subsp. nacurutu and make him very big for the description of the night time in eucalyptus forest.

And this will be the last species of the chapter. We can't add anyone else in the bestiary.


I agree. This species could have the size of an eagle owl and even hunt other owls.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
In which one better? I think it is a good idea & it is important not to forget it!!!


I think that it should be in a chapter about an island. The deermaras moved from island to island in the Caribbean region, perhaps we could describe an island were mammals are tiny and the largest predators are these cooperative birds of prey. Guadalupe, Martinica and Barbados are possible places.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 23:35. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I a..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I agree. This species could have the size of an eagle owl and even hunt other owls.


Ok! I also agree.

JOrnitho пишет:

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I think that it should be in a chapter about an island. The deermaras moved from island to island in the Caribbean region, perhaps we could describe an island were mammals are tiny and the largest predators are these cooperative birds of prey. Guadalupe, Martinica and Barbados are possible places.


No, I mean a real big deermaras from the mainland and very big collective hunting predator birds making flocks of 4-6 birds. May be somewhere in pampas.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 01.07.23 23:55. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: No, I..


wovoka пишет:

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No, I mean a real big deermaras from the mainland and very big collective hunting predator birds making flocks of 4-6 birds. May be somewhere in pampas.



I'm not sure if it would be possible, the continent is already very crowded with predators. What could happen is that these birds would very occasionally cooperate to hunt such prey, but normally they would only hunt medium sized ones in small group.
Also, what do you think of my idea of one of the island of the Carib having small versions of the continental animals that got here by island jumping and the largest predator is a giant stork descending of Mycteria americana? It could be the Neocene version of Hateg island.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 05:52. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I&#..


JOrnitho пишет:

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I'm not sure if it would be possible, the continent is already very crowded with predators. What could happen is that these birds would very occasionally cooperate to hunt such prey, but normally they would only hunt medium sized ones in small group.


I will think about it!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Also, what do you think of my idea of one of the island of the Carib having small versions of the continental animals that got here by island jumping and the largest predator is a giant stork descending of Mycteria americana? It could be the Neocene version of Hateg island.


This is good idea, I I have long wanted to write about the forest of tree ferns in Martinique.

I think if we will write about Martinique we will need this website https://en.martinique-tour.com/discover/fauna-and-flora/

It will be interesting to combinate endemics of island and small versions of the continental animals.

First of all I want to be in this chapter a Pepsis grossa & Caribena versicolor

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 06:25. Заголовок: So let's make a ..


So let's make a bestiary

MARTINIQUE ISLAND
1. Mycteria americana
2. Island deermara
3. Pepsis grossa
4. Caribena versicolor ( we need little bird for him to hunt)
5. Tree fern - Cyathea arborea


Other species you suggest!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 14:45. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Other..


wovoka пишет:

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Other species you suggest!


We could have a turtle descending of Chelonoidis carbonaria, an insectivorous descendant of the mongoose and a marsupial taking the role of monkeys.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 17:00. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: We ..


JOrnitho пишет:

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We could have a turtle descending of Chelonoidis carbonaria, an insectivorous descendant of the mongoose and a marsupial taking the role of monkeys.



I agree!

And what little bird we will take for the hunting of Caribena versicolor.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 18:30. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: And w..


wovoka пишет:

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And what little bird we will take for the hunting of Caribena versicolor.



Descendants of the introduced Ploceus cucullatus and Euplectes franciscanus. The spiders could invade their nests.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 20:28. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Des..


JOrnitho пишет:

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Descendants of the introduced Ploceus cucullatus and Euplectes franciscanus. The spiders could invade their nests.


Very beautiful birds, I agree!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 22:29. Заголовок: I made the descripti..


I made the description of the sloth opossum. If you know a better specific name for them, I'll change.

Timbú-preguiça-do-sul, or Southern sloth opossum (Timbu tardus)
Order: Didelphimorphia
Family: Parafolivoridae (Sloth-like opossums)
Habitat: Southern and Southeastern South America, tropical moist lowland Atlantic forests, including eucalyptus and acacia woods.
The transition between the Holocene and the Neocene caused the extinction of several species. Among them were the tree sloths (Bradypodidae and Choloepodidae), thus bringing an end to the suborder Folivora. With their niche vacant, new species evolved to fill it. The widespread bare-tailed woolly opossum (Caluromys philander) was one of them. This species gave rise to an entire new family, the Parafolivorideae. This clade is formed by marsupials specialized to feed solely on leaves and plant material. The timbú-preguiça-do-sul is one of these animals, a marsupial that inhabits the Southern and Southeastern South America, tropical moist lowland Atlantic forests, including eucalyptus and acacia woods. Its name is formed by words from Brazilian Portuguese that translated to English means Southern sloth opossum (timbú is a regional name for opossum).
All members of the family Parafolivoridae have very reduced canines and the molars are modified in a lophodont-like shape, helping them crush leaves. The timbú-preguiça-do-sul grows to a length of about 75 to 90 cm with males being considerably larger than females. Their weight ranges from 8 to 15 Kg. Their body shape is similar to that of a tree-kangaroo, but the timbú’s arms are longer and end in hands with long dark claws. These hands are used to grasp branches to have access to leaves. The feet are relatively large, with smaller claws than those of the hands. They also have prehensile tails, with the tip being naked. The ears are rounded and the eyes are large and black. The head is small, with a flat muzzle. Its coloring is dark chocolate brown in the dorsal areas while the underparts are paler.
Timbús are folivores, and feed exclusively on tree leaves. Overall their diet is broad but they do prefer younger leaves and some plants are consumed more than others. Such diets have low energy, making these animals have a slow metabolism. Due to that, they limit their energy use and sleep or rest 20 hours a day. They are predominantly active at night and spend most of their waking hours feeding. They typically eat and sleep in the same tree, possibly for as long as a day. On very hot days, a timbú may climb down to the coolest part of the tree which is cooler than the surrounding air.
This species is solitary, spending its entire life alone in the canopy of the trees. The timbús rarely come down to the ground, only doing that to change trees. In the ground, these animals are slow and vulnerable to predators. The best chance that they have to protect themselves is to stand upright and try to slap their predators with their long claws.
Timbús are seasonal breeders, and births take place from the middle of spring through the summer to early autumn. During this period males will be more active, constantly seeking fertile females. Intraspecific conflicts between males become common during reproduction, with them fighting in the trees by using their claws. These fights allow the female to assess which is dominant.
The timbú's gestation period lasts 33–35 days, and a female gives birth to a single cub . As with all marsupials, the young are born while at the embryonic stage. However, they have relatively well-developed lips, forelimbs, and shoulders, as well as functioning respiratory, digestive, and urinary systems. The cub crawls into its mother's pouch to continue the rest of its development.
The cub attaches itself to one of them and suckles for the rest of its pouch life.  At seven weeks of age, the young's head grows longer and becomes proportionally large, pigmentation begins to develop, and its sex can be determined. At 13 weeks, the cub weighs around 50 g and its head has doubled in size. The eyes begin to open and fine fur grows on the forehead, nape, shoulders, and arms. At 26 weeks, the fully furred animal resembles an adult and begins to poke its head out of the pouch.
The young fully emerges from the pouch for the first time at six or seven months of age. It explores its new surroundings cautiously, clinging to its mother for support. By nine months, it weighs over 1 kg and develops its adult fur color. Having permanently left the pouch, it rides on its mother's back for transportation, learning to climb by grasping branches. Gradually, it spends more time away from its mother, who becomes pregnant again after 12 months. Her bond with her previous offspring is permanently severed and she no longer allows it to suckle, but it will continue to live near her for the next 6–12 months. Sexual maturity is reached with three years by the females and four years by the males. They have a lifespan of 13 to 15 years.
A closely related species is the timbú-preguiça-do-norte (Timbu folivorus), an inhabitant of the tropical lowland Atlantic forest of Northeastern South America. Their name means Northern sloth opossum in portuguese. Their size and weight is similar to that of their Southern relatives, with the exception being the reddish-brown dorsal fur with dark brown areas in the head and base of the tail. The underparts are light gray.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.07.23 23:19. Заголовок: Cool description! S..


Cool description!

Sloth will be Unau in Oyampi language (one of the Tupi-Guarani dialect)
Opossum will be gã'bá in Tupi language
So may be unau-gaba?

Southern unau-gaba & Northern unau-gaba.

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 00:17. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: South..


wovoka пишет:

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Southern unau-gaba & Northern unau-gaba.


I think that I'll maintain the name in portuguese, since it's easier to be translated.
Do you have a sugestion for the scientific name?

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Откуда: Финляндия, Вантаа
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 09:46. Заголовок: Interesting animal!..


Interesting animal!

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Пост N: 1526
Откуда: Таллапнуджир, всякие ЛЮБАВЫ,ХВОСТЕНЫ, и т.д.
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 09:51. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good oposs..


JOrnitho
Good opossum! I add it to lists.

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Пост N: 5403
Откуда: Республика Лакота
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 14:08. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Do ..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Do you have a sugestion for the scientific name?


I'm not good in Latin(((

JOrnitho, I'm going on vacation for 2 weeks. I won’t have a laptop and I don’t know if there will be a normal Internet on the phone. Maybe you can take on the development the bestiary and the plan of the chapter about microwolves for this time. I think, for you, as a specialist in rodents, it will be especially interesting, and when I return, I will try to complete the descriptions of Maba, Ocumo, Knight-beetle and Water lily. And we will work on the chapters about Catatumbo & Maracaibo.

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Пост N: 819
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 15:29. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: JOrni..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
JOrnitho, I'm going on vacation for 2 weeks. I won’t have a laptop and I don’t know if there will be a normal Internet on the phone. Maybe you can take on the development the bestiary and the plan of the chapter about microwolves for this time. I think, for you, as a specialist in rodents, it will be especially interesting, and when I return, I will try to complete the descriptions of Maba, Ocumo, Knight-beetle and Water lily. And we will work on the chapters about Catatumbo & Maracaibo.


Ok! I'll work in these descriptions and in others that are pending.

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Пост N: 5405
Откуда: Республика Лакота
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 17:30. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Ok!..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Ok! I'll work in these descriptions and in others that are pending.


Thank you!




I just now thought that you are an expert in rodents and birds. And what if we come up with a chapter about some form of symbiosis between some rodent and a Passeriformes bird. Do you think such a symbiosis is possible, and what species of animal and bird could it be?

But let's make this chapter not in South America, but on some island in the Philippines, for example.

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Пост N: 820
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 20:09. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I jus..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I just now thought that you are an expert in rodents and birds. And what if we come up with a chapter about some form of symbiosis between some rodent and a Passeriformes bird. Do you think such a symbiosis is possible, and what species of animal and bird could it be?

But let's make this chapter not in South America, but on some island in the Philippines, for example.


Maybe it's related to their nests. The bird could make a nest that is also used by the rodent and the mammal could offer some type of protection. Perhaps it could be in the Southeastern Asia? I had an idea of a descendant of the goat that could have an appearence like that of the cryptid Kting Voar

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Пост N: 5406
Откуда: Республика Лакота
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 03.07.23 22:31. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: May..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
Maybe it's related to their nests. The bird could make a nest that is also used by the rodent and the mammal could offer some type of protection. Perhaps it could be in the Southeastern Asia? I had an idea of a descendant of the goat that could have an appearence like that of the cryptid Kting Voar


Very good ideas we will use them in chapter. And my idea is the following, the goat, like Kting Voar,
eats some kind of shrub that is especially tasty for him. The bird rises into the air and looks out for a grazing goat in the thickets, it finds a rodent, and calls him along to find this bush. When a rodent finds a bush, it digs the ground under it, looking for a large number of tasty larvae there, feeding on the edible roots of the bush, since there are many larvae, both the rodent and the bird eat them. Also, a bird can help a rodent find anthills and termite mounds, and when irodent destroys them to eat insects, the bird eats eggs and insect larvae. We just need to decide on which island of the Philippine archipelago this happens, find out what plants with edible roots are there, what species of beetles larvae can eat them and decide what the species of insectivorous rodent and insectivorous
Passeriformes bird. As well as species of ants and termites. And perhaps some kind of bird of prey capable of hunting both a bird and a rodent. But the little bird will learn to distract the predator and thus save the life of his hunting partner. When I will return, I do a search for the island and animal species. I think eight biological species will be enough for the chapter: goat, rodent, insectivorous bird, bird of prey, beetle with tasty larvae, ants, termites, edible bush may be with berries which also will eat the "partners".

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Пост N: 821
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.07.23 00:25. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: Very ..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Very good ideas we will use them in chapter. And my idea is the following, the goat, like Kting Voar,
eats some kind of shrub that is especially tasty for him. The bird rises into the air and looks out for a grazing goat in the thickets, it finds a rodent, and calls him along to find this bush. When a rodent finds a bush, it digs the ground under it, looking for a large number of tasty larvae there, feeding on the edible roots of the bush, since there are many larvae, both the rodent and the bird eat them. Also, a bird can help a rodent find anthills and termite mounds, and when irodent destroys them to eat insects, the bird eats eggs and insect larvae. We just need to decide on which island of the Philippine archipelago this happens, find out what plants with edible roots are there, what species of beetles larvae can eat them and decide what the species of insectivorous rodent and insectivorous
Passeriformes bird. As well as species of ants and termites. And perhaps some kind of bird of prey capable of hunting both a bird and a rodent. But the little bird will learn to distract the predator and thus save the life of his hunting partner. When I will return, I do a search for the island and animal species. I think eight biological species will be enough for the chapter: goat, rodent, insectivorous bird, bird of prey, beetle with tasty larvae, ants, termites, edible bush may be with berries which also will eat the "partners".



I like it! This passerine could be like the Indicatoridae, but showing anthills and termitaries. Don't you think that this chapter fould happen in Cambodia or Vietnam?

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Пост N: 5411
Откуда: Республика Лакота
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.07.23 15:04. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I l..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like it! This passerine could be like the Indicatoridae, but showing anthills and termitaries.


Yes!

Not in Cambodia, not in Vietnam, not Philippine archipelago there is no wild species of goats, only domestic or became feral domestic goats.
So it is not important in what part of South Eastern Asia to make chapter.

I prefer one of two Philippine islands were there goat farms: Negros and Bohol. But in neocene map Negros almost became a one island with Panay and Cebu. But i want not very big island. So it will be Bohol.
Phisical map of Bohol https://ppdo.bohol.gov.ph/wp-content/uploads/wppa/292.jpg
And I like one of goat breeds that is used by farmers of Philippine: Boer goat. May be our goat will become bigger and more massive with horns like has Kting Voar and big hanging ears.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_goat

Rodent can be Rattus tanezumi, Rattus exulans, Rattus everetti, Bullimus bagobus, Batomys salomonseni.
Who is better?

The Passeriformes bird will be Rhipidura samarensis its behavior it's that what we need! It's endemic of some islands of Philippines but it has Least Concern status.
Or, if not this bird, than it can be Hypothymis azurea it has very huge areal in South Eastern Asia.
But I prefer the first variant.

Bird of prey will be Besra sparrowhawk (Accipiter virgatus).

There is no termites on the island but they could get there from nearby islands. The species will be Macrotermes gilvus.

On the island there only two species of ants and both are very aggressive invasive species Solenopsis geminata and Anoplolepis gracilipes. We can describe war between armies of these two species for the colonies of Ricania speculum which produce honeydew sucking sap of Arenga tremula (this insect doesn't present on the island but can get from nearby islands). Our little bird will eat imago, nymphs and eggs of Ricania speculum.

Our rodent will need some protective organs two feed both these ants, because they just could kill him. And this will be not enough one bird two help him but a flock of Rhipidura samarensis.

The beetle will be Leucopholis irrorata.

The plant which roots will eat his larvae and which leaves will eat goat and which berries will eat bird and rodent will be Cordyline fruticosa.

The big prey animal that will hunt on goats will be native Viverra tangalunga.

The species we can add to chapter or do not.

Also partners may be will eat berries Antidesma bunius (there is no on the island but the birds could bring seeds with their guano from nearby islands).

Also can be native for this island beetles:
1. Onthophagus armatus eating dung of goat.
2. Oryctes rhinoceros pest of Arenga tremula the ants will eat it's larvae.

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Пост N: 822
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.07.23 17:02. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: I pre..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
I prefer one of two Philippine islands were there goat farms: Negros and Bohol. But in neocene map Negros almost became a one island with Panay and Cebu. But i want not very big island. So it will be Bohol.
Phisical map of Bohol https://ppdo.bohol.gov.ph/wp-content/uploads/wppa/292.jpg
And I like one of goat breeds that is used by farmers of Philippine: Boer goat. May be our goat will become bigger and more massive with horns like has Kting Voar and big hanging ears.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_goat


I like it! The Kting voar could be like a bull, similar to the extinct kouprey, but with these characteristics.
Sometime ago I proposed some animals for the Philippines too. Here they are:
A semi-aquatic descendant of the pig, called Khinzir (Khinzir amphibius) that live in Philippines, Borneo and Sulawesi.
A descendant of the descendant of the Philippine mouse-deer called three-horned deer (Amplitragulus tricornis).
A predatory descendant of the asian house shrew called Giant chuchunder (Chuchunder ferox). It have the size of a raccon.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
Rodent can be Rattus tanezumi, Rattus exulans, Rattus everetti, Bullimus bagobus, Batomys salomonseni.
Who is better?


We could use the Rattus everetti. We could do something interesting with Rattus tanezumi, perhaps an arboreal species like the South American Echimyidae.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
The Passeriformes bird will be Rhipidura samarensis its behavior it's that what we need! It's endemic of some islands of Philippines but it has Least Concern status.
Or, if not this bird, than it can be Hypothymis azurea it has very huge areal in South Eastern Asia.
But I prefer the first variant.


I think that Rhipidura samarensis is good as the ancestor. Later we could use Hypothymis azurea as an ancestor for Formicariidae-like birds in Asia.

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Пост N: 5415
Откуда: Республика Лакота
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.07.23 17:19. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: I l..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I like it! The Kting voar could be like a bull, similar to the extinct kouprey, but with these characteristics.


Cool idea!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
We could use the Rattus everetti. We could do something interesting with Rattus tanezumi, perhaps an arboreal species like the South American Echimyidae.


Ok! Let's do it!

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
A semi-aquatic descendant of the pig, called Khinzir (Khinzir amphibius) that live in Philippines, Borneo and Sulawesi.
A descendant of the descendant of the Philippine mouse-deer called three-horned deer (Amplitragulus tricornis).
A predatory descendant of the asian house shrew called Giant chuchunder (Chuchunder ferox). It have the size of a raccon.


We can use them also in chapter.

But i don't know how Three-horned deer (Amplitragulus tricornis) will get to Bohol, now Tragulus nigricans living only in Palawan and Balabac and he is endangared. Better make in somebody like that in Borneo from Tragulus napu or Tragulus kanchil.


The forest will consist of trees from Holocene Bohol island: Vitex parviflora, Swietenia mahagoni, Ficus elastica, Artocarpus heterophyllus, Pandanus tectorius.
In what tree rodent and bird will better make their common nest?

And also they will prefer to live on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate_Hills

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Пост N: 823
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.07.23 19:55. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But i..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But i don't know how Three-horned deer (Amplitragulus tricornis) will get to Bohol, now Tragulus nigricans living only in Palawan and Balabac and he is endangared. Better make in somebody like that in Borneo from Tragulus napu or Tragulus kanchil.


When I made this animal, I thought that it would live in Palawan and Balabac. Isn’t possible for one of the other species to move to the Philippines through island jumping?

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
In what tree rodent and bird will better make their common nest?


I think that Vitex parviflora could work.

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Пост N: 5419
Откуда: Республика Лакота
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 04.07.23 22:32. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: Whe..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
When I made this animal, I thought that it would live in Palawan and Balabac. Isn’t possible for one of the other species to move to the Philippines through island jumping?


That's why, unfortunately, we couldn't include this animal in the chapter.

JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
I think that Vitex parviflora could work.


So then they will live in common nest on this tree.

But how it will look like this common nest? This was your idea, can you describe it in more detail?

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Пост N: 824
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 05.07.23 01:55. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But h..


wovoka пишет:

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But how it will look like this common nest? This was your idea, can you describe it in more detail?


I thought that these birds could make comunal nests, where the rats would also live.

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wovoka
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Пост N: 5421
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 05.07.23 02:09. Заголовок: But how that nest wi..


But how that nest will look like?

And one more question. Your Idea was that rodent wold protect bird from enemies.

In Bohol live Paradoxurus hermaphroditus it could be the main enemy for bird and rodent when they are in the nest, how would rodent protect himself and bird?

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Пост N: 825
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 05.07.23 13:38. Заголовок: wovoka пишет: But h..


wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
But how that nest will look like?


I thought that it could be like those of a monk parakeet. They would build a single large nest with separate entrances for each pair. The colony would become large, with pairs occupying separate sections in composite nests.
Talking about monk parakeets, they are good birds to appear in the chapter about eucalyptus and acacia woods. These birds expanded their territory because of the artificial forests. We could make an interesting descendant for them.

wovoka пишет:

 цитата:
In Bohol live Paradoxurus hermaphroditus it could be the main enemy for bird and rodent when they are in the nest, how would rodent protect himself and bird?


These rodents could also add sticks in the bird's nest, increasing it so they could make their own home. Living in large groups, they could also be aggressive, mobbing against predators.

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Пост N: 5422
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 17.07.23 13:11. Заголовок: I came back! Intere..


I came back!

Interesting ideas. I agree with everything.

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JOrnitho



Пост N: 844
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 21.07.23 02:46. Заголовок: wovoka You mentione..


wovoka
You mentioned that you wanted to make an analogue to the megaloceros, so I thought that we could use the red deer that was introduced in Argentina and Chile. It could living in the Valdivian temperate forests and be tall, so it would feed in the tree branches and avoid competition with deermaras and local smaller deers. We could have it develop an antler in a different shape (maybe a crescent shape, so it could be a moon deer).
Another candidate could be the fallow deer that was also introduced in Argentina and Chile, but this species don't fare well with glaciations. While it was even introduced in South Africa, I don't know if it can survive in any of the places where it was introduced after the Ice Age, besides the already established New Zealand.

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Пост N: 5638
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 02.08.23 01:27. Заголовок: JOrnitho пишет: wov..


JOrnitho пишет:

 цитата:
wovoka
You mentioned that you wanted to make an analogue to the megaloceros, so I thought that we could use the red deer that was introduced in Argentina and Chile. It could living in the Valdivian temperate forests and be tall, so it would feed in the tree branches and avoid competition with deermaras and local smaller deers. We could have it develop an antler in a different shape (maybe a crescent shape, so it could be a moon deer).
Another candidate could be the fallow deer that was also introduced in Argentina and Chile, but this species don't fare well with glaciations. While it was even introduced in South Africa, I don't know if it can survive in any of the places where it was introduced after the Ice Age, besides the already established New Zealand.



It is cool idea!
Оффтоп: It is strange I was sure I answered on this post.

JOrnitho, I at last have made the description of Maba for our chapter about Catatumbo river
https://sivatherium.borda.ru/?1-1-1690928393181-00000049-000-10001-0#056

But the description is in Russian and very long.

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Пост N: 887
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.08.23 03:09. Заголовок: Finished the descrip..


Finished the description of some mongosses. Did we talked about other possible descendants?
Also, if someone have a better name for the South American mongoose, I'm accepting. This one pretty bad, but it was only what I could think at the moment.

South American meerkat (Parasuricata sociabilis)
Order:Carnivora
Family:Hespertidae
Habitat:Savannas of Central South America
During the entire Holocene, the introduction of animals by humans in habitats that weren’t their own was a common practice. The small Indian mongoose (Urva auropunctata) was introduced by the humans in the Caribbean island of Trinidad and in Surinam, French Guiana and Guyana in South America. This species proved to be well adapted for these areas and thrived. During the Neocene, the South American population had not only spread through the tropical areas of the continent, but had also generated a new subfamily, the Austrohespertinae, the South American mongooses. Among the species of this group is the South American meerkat, an inhabitant of savannas of Central South America.
The South American meerkat is a small social mongoose with a slim build characterized by a broad head, large eyes, a pointed snout, long legs and a thin tapering tail. The head-and-body length is around 25–37 cm, and the weight is between 0.66–1 kg. Their soft fur is reddish-brown with dark gray stripes running down from its back to the base of the tail, which is covered by black rings and ends in a black tip.
This species is primarily an insectivore, feeding heavily on beetles and lepidopterans; it can additionally feed on eggs, amphibians, scorpions and spiders, to whose venom they are immune, reptiles, small birds, plants and seeds. On the other hand, they are preyed on by birds of prey, large felines and snakes.
The reason why this species receives the name of meerkat is due to the fact that they are social animals like the true meerkats from the Holocene. This species forms packs of two to 30 individuals each comprising nearly equal numbers of either sex and multiple family units of pairs and their offspring. Members of a pack take turns at jobs such as looking after pups and keeping a lookout for predators. They are a cooperatively breeding species—typically the dominant 'breeders' in a pack produce offspring, and the nonbreeding, subordinate 'helpers' provide altruistic care for the pups. This division of labor is not as strictly defined as it is in specialized eusocial species, Moreover, they have a clear dominance hierarchy with older individuals having a higher social status.
South American meerkats are highly vigilant, and frequently survey their surroundings by turning their heads side to side, with some individuals always standing sentry and looking out for danger. Vocal communication is used frequently in different contexts, with repetitive, high-pitched barks used to warn others of predators nearby.
A pack generally occupies a home range, 4 km2 large on average but sometimes as big as 10 km2, containing many burrows 50 to 100 m apart, of which some remain unused. These burrows are excavated by themselves. The area near the periphery of home ranges is scent marked mostly by the dominant individuals. They are very territorial, with encounters between members of different packs being highly aggressive, leading to severe injuries and often deaths.
Subordinate individuals rarely are able to breed successfully, with dominant females often killing the litters of subordinate ones. As such, subordinate individuals will disperse to other packs to find mates during the breeding season.
South American meerkats breed throughout the year with seasonal peaks, typically during months of heavy rainfall. After a gestation of 60 days, a litter of three to seven pups is born. They are born blind and deaf. Young pups are kept securely in a den, from where they emerge after around 16 days, the time that their eyes and ears are fully open. They start foraging with adults by 26 days. The nonbreeding members of the pack help substantially with juvenile care, for instance they feed the pups and huddle with them for warmth. The pups learn how to forage by watching their relatives, becoming old enough to forage within 12 weeks. They reach sexual maturity within two or three years and the lifespan is 15 years.

Amazon mongoose (Neourva amazonica)
Order:Carnivora
Family:Hespertidae
Habitat: Amazon rainforest, in areas of “terra firme” forest.
During the Holocene, humans had introduced small Indian mongoose (Urva auropunctata) to Surinam, French Guiana and Guyana in South America. The animals thrived in these countries and by the Neocene they left descendants, which together form the subfamily Austrohespertinae. Several genera had spread through the continent, inhabiting different biomes. One of them is the Amazon mongoose, an inhabitant of “terra firme” areas in the Amazon rainforest.
This species has the appearance of a typical mongoose. Its body is slender, and the head is elongated with a pointed snout. The length of the head and body is 55 cm, with a tail having 45 cm. The ears are short and round. The feet have five toes and long claws. Sexes differ in size, with males having a wider head and bigger bodies. Their fur is dark brown in the upperparts, while the belly is light brown.
Amazon mongoose and other species of the genus Neourva had become great predators of serpents. They primarily achieves this through tiring the snake out, by enticing it to make multiple strikes which it acrobatically avoids. Secondary protection against the venomous bite includes the stiff rigid hair, which is excited at such times, the thick loose skin and specialized acetylcholine receptors render it resistant or immune to venom. Besides it, mongooses will also eat insects including dragonflies, grasshoppers, mole crickets, ground beetles, earwigs and ants. It also preys on spiders, scorpions, amphibs, birds, rats and small marsupials. Non venomous snakes are also eaten, but they avoid large species.
They are solitary animals, only being seen in pairs during the mating season, which starts in rainy periods. The gestation period lasts for 60 to 65 days, the female gives birth to two to four offspring. They remain with their mother until reaching seven months, during this period they learn how to find food and to hunt venomous serpents. Sexual maturity is reached within ten months and they have a lifespan of 10 years.
Other representatives of the genus Neourva are:
Andean mongoose (Neourva minor)
This species is an inhabitant of the Andean cloud forests. The smallest representative of the genus, with 16-23 cm of length. It has a large pointed head, small ears, a long tail, short limbs and long claws. The fur is a golden brown fur in the back and only gold in the belly.

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Пост N: 1189
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.08.23 10:28. Заголовок: Interesting animals!..


Interesting animals!

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Пост N: 1807
Откуда: Таллапнуджир, всякие ЛЮБАВЫ,ХВОСТЕНЫ, и т.д.
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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.08.23 15:28. Заголовок: JOrnitho Good anima..


JOrnitho
Good animals!

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ссылка на сообщение  Отправлено: 08.08.23 19:12. Заголовок: Good animals! JOrni..


Good animals!

JOrnitho пишет:

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South American meerkat


Then better "pseudomeerkat"

JOrnitho пишет:

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Did we talked about other possible descendants?


We were talking about:
1. the biggest Andean bear-like mongoose (hunts giant boas, very long poisonous snakes, huge tegus, although it can even sometimes hunt young and very old deers).
2. Hyena-like mongoose in some South American desert, eat can be saber-toothed eating armadillo and also big snakes and tegus.
3. Karumboi (in tapiete - he eats snake) mongoose from Marvelous Forest. He would be not like real mongoose, he would be like Galidia elegans (also red, but not only with a striped tail, but with a completely striped body, only with ginger head).
4. Mouse-sized mongooses from Marvelous forest: one smaller ticks and small spiders eating and one bigger eating little scorpions, centipedes and poison dart frogs. Names: A. Sanguya-aguara; B. Urare-aguara (Sanguya-aguara - (in tupi "sanguya" (correctly writing sanguja, but spelling Sanguya, in tapiete just anguya) means any myomorphs, aguara - means racoon) - so the name will translate mouse-racoon - this will be name of smaller mongoose; Urare-aguara - (in tupi "urare" means animal from the family Echimyidae) - this will be name of bigger mongoose)
5. Kuatirana-aguara (kuatirana - squirell in guarani, aguara - racoon in tupi) in Marvelous forest - Squirrel honey&nectar-eating mongoose. (His relative lemur-mongoose (mongoose looking like lemur, with lemur way of life and diet: absolutely herbivorous, eating fruits, berries, leaves, edible roots, may be nuts and mushrooms. I'll describe him for the chapter about jaguape).

Also we can settle somewhere:
1. weasel like mongoose, eating birds and their eggs on trees;0000
2. mongoose like Liberiictis kuhni with long nose eating earthworms;
3. mongoose with pig nose like Arctonyx collaris eating leeches, poisonous frogs and so on;
4. mongoose like kusimanse - although eating not termites but Bumble Bees and social earth wasps like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agelaia_pallipes

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